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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #31

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No, primary sources don't change, keeping the historical enemy in its proper context. The people reading them intepret them different using their modem sensibilities even after being warned not to do that.
As I explained in my last post, the examples I used are universal, not modern.

If it were not the case then Jesus would have been preaching about the benefits of genocide.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #32
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As I explained in my last post, the examples I used are universal, not modern.

If it were not the case then Jesus would have been preaching about the benefits of genocide.
Your concepts of just war aren't universal because i guarantee that i don't believe 9/10 of what you believe. And if i don't, then people harder than me who lived generations or ages ago, they also wouldn't agree with you.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:48 PM   #33

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There were a lot pacifists in world war II who were by no means left wing politically (I'm not really sure of the peace churches political affiliations historically, but i'm guessing it was not communist or socialist). Also the left is not monolithic in a view of not fighting or fighting, not all the left is communist or socialist, and even within these there can be those who would wish to fight or be willing to fight. Woody Guthrie would be an example of one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Guthrie.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #34

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No, primary sources don't change, keeping the historical enemy in its proper context. The people reading them intepret them different using their modem sensibilities even after being warned not to do that.


What happens when new primary sources are revealed? The entire first version of wwii was flawed wo knowledge of Ultra in late 70's, for example. History is always viewed through the lens of the current.

Another good example are US Presidents. Some leave office considered poor leaders. Now they rank top 10. Seems it evolves.


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Old January 11th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #35
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What happens when new primary sources are revealed? The entire first version of wwii was flawed wo knowledge of Ultra in late 70's, for example. History is always viewed through the lens of the current.

Another good example are US Presidents. Some leave office considered poor leaders. Now they rank top 10. Seems it evolves.


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We aren't discussing newly emerging evidence about Smedley Butler., we're discussing whether a universal morality exists (it doesn't) and whether there is one universal definition of "just war" (there isn't). I dont agree with fellow human who lives in 2017, ergo not universal, to say he and early 20th century morality was the same as his is presentism. Which makes for crap history.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #36

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Lets step back to OP. The wwii is The Good War. That's an evolving in of itself myth. It took on a life of its own as the 50th aniv approached & all the vets were now opening up about it. The problem with all that outstanding Greatest Generation history is that all the guys who killed themselves outright or through alcoholism weren't around to tell you how 'great' it was cause they didn't make it to 50. I've got two in my family & it wasn't great. It was something they just had to do. Glad it was over & they didn't go to reunions or hang out at vets clubs. And they were both decorated stone cold killers.


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Old January 11th, 2017, 09:01 PM   #37

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. And they were both decorated stone cold killers.

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There is surely more silence on some things that happened in WWII compared to Vietnam but there is definitely a tinge of letting bygones be due to the conception of WWII as a 'just' war compared to Vietnam or more recent wars where innocents were also killed in large numbers by the supposed 'good' side.

My grandpa just attended the funeral of the last remaining man from his unit that barely missed landing at Guadalcanal and fought in Tarawa and Saipan so he is now the last Marine alive on his side of the state that fought in WWII.

He never spoke much about the war to anyone other than fellow Marine vets but did express some thoughts about the 'good' war concept to my dad who gained his U.S. citizenship serving in Vietnam. Only thing my dad has said is that my grandpa told him that there are baby killers in every war, the only difference is if the people back home find out about it and that no one who wasn't there will understand it.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #38

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I'm talking specifically about the coup part. The people that supposedly propositioned him to lead a coup were some of the most successful, powerful, and influential men in America. And we're supposed to believe they were so upset over a leftist democrat winning the presidency that they tried to recruit an even further leftist to lead the coup? Were they too dumb to know they were recruitinh the very last person who'd do the job or stay silent. No way, he made it up.
There was no real coup in the offing. The plotters were only ever trying to ensnare Butler in a treasonous plot so as to smear his good name. He knew their game instantly and called the cops. The plotters just denied everything and it was their word against Butler's.

His book, War Is a Racket, is still in print. If your local library doesn't have a copy, buy two, one for you and one for them and then you will be a very fine fellow indeed.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:15 AM   #39
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There was no real coup in the offing. The plotters were only ever trying to ensnare Butler in a treasonous plot so as to smear his good name. He knew their game instantly and called the cops. The plotters just denied everything and it was their word against Butler's.

His book, War Is a Racket, is still in print. If your local library doesn't have a copy, buy two, one for you and one for them and then you will be a very fine fellow indeed.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Butler's "good name" was destroyed long before the early 30s, due to his outspoken nature to push far left wing politics on everyone he met or could influence. It destroyed his career in the Corps (that wasn't recoverable even having been awarded two MOHs), and it then crossed into his life as a retiree, when he became ensnared with the same bed fellows (Socialist, anarchists, communists) who were legitimately attempting to overthrow the US govt, acting under orders from a foreign govt, during our nation's first legitimate Red Scare.

I wouldn't buy his book anymore than I'd wear a shirt with Che Gueverra's face on it. Nor should any fine fellow.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:30 AM   #40

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There is surely more silence on some things that happened in WWII compared to Vietnam but there is definitely a tinge of letting bygones be due to the conception of WWII as a 'just' war compared to Vietnam....


Good point. And you cannot separate the 'Good War' narrative from Vietnam. Vietnam is a war of disillusionment and only if we had a 'good war' like those guys did.
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