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Old June 17th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #71

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I'd like an answer from the us crusaders who fight against international terrorism.
This is irrelevant to this thread as it is about Che Guevara. For questions on "U.S. Crusaders", International Terrorism, and the two Iraq wars, please start another thread.

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A lot of people claim that in this forum. Can somebody suggest a reference? A book (I'd like a non american but i won't insist on that) in english?
If you take a close look at this thread, there are a couple of instances of references throughout. It is also a borderline, argumentum ad odium, and therefore a red herring fallacy.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:00 AM   #72

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Interesting that this thread has been resurrected after more than a year. I wrote a story last year about Che; a hard as nails doctor who saved the Cuban revolution more than once with his bravery. Before Che and Castro, Cuba was at the mercy of big commercial interests, the CIA and the mob's casino based money launderers and any criminal group using the mob's casino to clean up their illegal currency. Not the nicest people to have living in your poor country. They were groups that could be reasonably thought to have employed and some very unpleasant characters indeed. Money makes people do some pretty grusome things too.

Some posting here think Cuba was a rich country, statistically it may have been compared to other Caribbean islands but that was never really the case, not for most people. Mucho money flew in and mucho money flew out. Some here rank the medical doctor Che who treated lepers and the poor with Pol Pot and a child molester! They really do have a disturbed view of what happened. That's the type of story likely to have originated from the exiled Cuban community in Miami.

The Cuban revolution was not the only revolution where traitors were executed. As for innocents being killed... that is always something that mistaken judgement will be stained with. Knowing Che's humanist and intellectual background, it was likely mistakes made worse by the nature of his opposition and the large number of collaborators that Batista's friends, the Mob and the CIA employed, that made it hard to distinguish between the truly bad and the paid help. Most of the truly bad got away then seething in their new found poverty, manufactured hideous stories for the younger generation growing up in the 1960s to believe. These stories painted themselves as good law abiding citizens and the revolutionaries as monsters. Almost none of them admit to abduction and murder as a way of life under Batista's friends .

Today sadly, this generation of exiles are probably re-telling these stories to their grandchildren.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 09:25 PM   #73

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Interesting that this thread has been resurrected after more than a year.
Linoxilos brought it back with this statement. Hardly noteworthy.

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Che Guevara was a pure fighter with noble motives. He didn't trade his fight for a minister's chair (although he used to be a minister).

Born to fight, remained loyal to his ideas, died for them. Guevara inspired millions of people worldwide.
It reminds me of an image I saw once:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old November 1st, 2012, 10:33 PM   #74

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You do not know the history of Che Guevara then, if you believe he only killed soldiers.
Che Guevara's Forgotten Victims
“I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed ‘an innocent’. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere.”— Jon Lee Anderson
His biographer.

There isn't an enough evidence to say that he definitely did. There was always a huge backlash floating behind Che attempting to demonize him ever since his legacy transform him into a cultural phenomenon.

Last edited by Ashiusx; November 1st, 2012 at 10:48 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 07:32 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cedar Brown View Post
I'm interested in reading his Guerilla Warfare book. I find guerilla leaders interesting.

Now I'm wondering if Lettow-Vorbeck wrote anything.


Guevara was a killer but I don't think he was much worse than the other side. It was a dirty, nasty time.
Not to derail but diary of Lettow-Vorbeck is available on archives.org

My reminiscences of East Africa; : Lettow-Vorbeck, Paul Emil von, 1870- : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Back to Che, a revolutionnary marxist who's charisma and dedication was immense. However his theories, views of politcs and goals were very marxist and quite violent.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #76

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Even if I was diehard Marxist who had no problems with some of the more controversial aspects of Che's life (war crimes), I'd have a hard time admiring a man who was killed 10 minutes into his own revolution. His Bolivia adventure was a spectacular disaster.

I think he is one of history's great blundering fools, and would be little remembered by history if not for an iconic photograph.

Last edited by Scaeva; November 7th, 2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #77

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I think he is one of history's great blundering fools, and would be little remembered by history if not for an iconic photograph.
A sort of delicious irony here. It is with thanks to capitalism and popular culture "buying" into his myth that he is so well known. Ay caramba!
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #78

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Originally Posted by Ashiusx View Post
“I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed ‘an innocent’. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere.”— Jon Lee Anderson
His biographer.

There isn't an enough evidence to say that he definitely did. There was always a huge backlash floating behind Che attempting to demonize him ever since his legacy transform him into a cultural phenomenon.
I don't know, this quote from his own mind kind of nicely sums him up:

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary...These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the The Wall! " --Ernesto 'Che' Guevara


Private ownership, free elections, religious tolerance, respecting national/international law and respect for the individual and their rights didn't fit into his personal credo. That is all so bourgeois fit only for the firing squad manned by the proletariat. Frightful stuff if you happened to disagree with any minor detail.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #79

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Some of the other pure revolutionaries are already long forgotten or at least unfamiliar. Che is truly a dude on a t-shirt.
Che still has a pretty visible legacy is Latin America. Lots of people idolize him. His historical impact is debatable but the man is iconic, that's a fact.

Moreover, I'd trade Batista for Castro and Che any day of the week.

Last edited by hisstoryin; November 8th, 2012 at 02:32 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #80
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I'd trade Batista for Castro and Che any day of the week.
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So would I. Then I'd trade Castro and Che for two fresh turds.
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