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Old December 2nd, 2017, 01:49 PM   #21
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One of the turning points of WW2, in my opinion, was when the USSR found out that Japan was NOT going to attack them on the Manchurian Front. (Pearl Harbour, and their spy in Japan confirmed it) This allowed them to switch a lot of troops to the Moscow front for the counter-attack in Dec 1941, and to use the Siberian troops freely in the following years.

If Hitler had NOT declared war on the USA, the US might have had some problems declaring war on Germany, as there was no real support for joining the European war before that. Japan united the USA in condemnation of Pearl Harbour, but Hitler made a huge mistake by uniting the USA against him as well.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid marvin View Post

Personally I think Hitler declared war on the US to bolster his popularity and the belief of his troops at a time when the war in Russia was starting to turn; if the Fuhrer could declare war on the US then things must be better than they appeared, or he had a trick up his sleeve, just like with the 'wonder weapons'.
It's the first time I've heard this argument and to me it's as good an argument as any.

We're not talking about reasonable people here.

What we do know about Hitler and associates is that they were opportunists who simply made it up as they went along, and they were heavily invested in 'the power of propaganda'.

So, yeah, you could have a point there.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:15 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Giraffe View Post
One of the turning points of WW2, in my opinion, was when the USSR found out that Japan was NOT going to attack them on the Manchurian Front. (Pearl Harbour, and their spy in Japan confirmed it) This allowed them to switch a lot of troops to the Moscow front for the counter-attack in Dec 1941, and to use the Siberian troops freely in the following years.

If Hitler had NOT declared war on the USA, the US might have had some problems declaring war on Germany, as there was no real support for joining the European war before that. Japan united the USA in condemnation of Pearl Harbour, but Hitler made a huge mistake by uniting the USA against him as well.
It was a huge turning point when you consider the Russians had no more reserves to throw into the fight. The Germans outnumbered the Russians outside of Moscow for the first time.

It's debated in terms of how many Siberian units were shipped to Moscow, but one thing for sure is that they were tough and skilled in winter warfare.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by scalps91 View Post

If I could just get a dumbed down answer cause I am not an expert nor do I claim to be. thanks
Hitler was an idiot.

In terms of territory, US interests lay in the pacific, not Europe.

No problem.
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Old December 15th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #25

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"The New Dealers' War: FDR And The War Within World War II" by Thomas Fleming
is a book that has an intriguing take on this topic.

While I disagree with a lot of it, it mentioned that the contingency
US War Plan for fighting Germany was leaked to the Chicago Tribune
on IIRC, ~ Dec. 4, 1941 - before Pearl Harbor.

The Chicago Tribune was bitterly anti-FDR and isolationist. I am
sure they spun it as - FDR is plotting to get us into War!!!

As mentioned, I take the book with a huge grain of salt, but
Fleming's contention is that Hitler took this newspaper story
as gospel proof that the US was planning to get into the
war, so declared war.


Ironic, if true - an isolationist newspaper trying desperately to
keep the US out of WWII, leading to the opposite.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 04:43 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
Hi Pendennis, yes I did know about the US supply & Air Force in Burma, but not actual ground troops AFAIK, as you mention it was British, Indians and some Chinese boots on the ground
A good read
https://www.amazon.com/Behind-Japane.../dp/1626365385


from wiki

On April 14, 1942, William Donovan, as Coordinator of Information (which evolved into the Office of Strategic Services that June), activated Detachment 101 for action behind enemy lines in Burma. The first unit of its kind, the Detachment was charged with gathering intelligence, harassing the Japanese through guerrilla actions, identifying targets for the Army Air Force to bomb, and rescuing downed Allied airmen. Because Detachment 101 was never larger than a few hundred Americans, it relied on support from various tribal groups in Burma. In particular, the vigorously anti-Japanese Kachin people were vital to the unit's success. By the time of its deactivation on July 12, 1945, Detachment 101 had scored impressive results. According to official statistics, with a loss of some 22 Americans, Detachment 101 killed 5,428 Japanese and rescued 574 Allied personnel."[2] 101's efforts opened the way for Stilwell's Chinese forces, Wingate's Raiders, Merrill's Marauders, and the great counter-attack against the Japanese Imperial life-line."[3]

During most of the unit's existence, it funded and coordinated various resistance groups made up of the Kachin people of northern Burma. The best known resistance force was known as the Kachin Rangers and was under the command of Carl F. Eifler, though often the term Kachin Rangers has been used to describe all Kachin Forces raised during the war by the Americans in Northern Burma.[4]

In July 1942, twenty OSS men moved in and set up headquarters at Nazira in the northeastern Indian province of Assam. No operations of any significance occurred until the end of 1942. Starting in 1943, small groups or individuals were parachuted behind Japanese lines to remote Kachin villages, followed by a parachute supply drop. The Americans then began to create independent guerrilla groups of the Kachin people, calling in weapons and equipment drops. In December 1943 Stilwell issued a directive that Detachment 101 increase its strength to 3,000 guerillas. They were recruited from within Burma, many of them "fierce Kachins".[5]

Once established, the groups undertook a variety of unconventional missions. They ambushed Japanese patrols, rescued downed American pilots, and cleared small landing strips in the jungle. They also screened the advances of larger Allied forces, including Merrill's Marauders.[6]

Eifler held the rank of Colonel when he was relieved because of serious head injuries, Lt. Col. William R. Peers taking over command. At the end of the war, each Kachin Ranger received the CMA (Citation for Military Assistance) Award.[Note 1] Actually, the medal was the result of a mistake. An OSS officer, reading a radio message that advised him how to reward heroic Kachin action, misinterpreted the abbreviation for "comma" ("CMA") as signifying some sort of a medal. Reluctant to leave the Kachins empty handed, the OSS quickly created the medal and presented it to them.[7]
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:23 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
Hi Pendennis, yes I did know about the US supply & Air Force in Burma, but not actual ground troops AFAIK, as you mention it was British, Indians and some Chinese boots on the ground
Except for Merrill’s Marauders around Myitkina...
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful View Post
...in terms of territory, US interests lay in the pacific, not Europe...
If the USA had stayed out of the ETO, either Nazi Germany or the USSR would have won complete control of the European continent


Either scenario is far worse than the Cold War situation we had.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
There was a US combat troops in Burma as far as I know, it was a regiment sized (but without regiment heavy weapons) 5307th Composite Unit called Merrill's Marauders, specilialized in long range penetration and jungle warfare.
Not a great participation.
I first saw Destination Burma in the mid-1950s without knowing anything about its context. I’ve seen it several times since. In retrospect, it seems clear to me that it was based on Merrill’s Marauders but I didn’t know it at the time and I don’t recall that the unit whose story it told was identified as being led by Frank (?) Merrill.

There was a later - much later - full color movie entitled Merrill’s Marauders made. I don’t remember the star’s name, but it more or less accurately told the story of this unit’s successful attack on Myitkina, after which it basically fell apart.

I can’t blame the Brits for being upset about the “impression” this movie gave that the US somehow provided many of the ground troops in Burma, although this was never dwelled on in either of these movies.

Love Destination Burma or hate it, but I thought Flynn’s performance was excellent and portrayed the brutality and horror of jungle fighting rather well.

Last edited by royal744; December 25th, 2017 at 08:50 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 08:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by CPTANT View Post
Part of why Hitler declared war on the USA was because of the tripartite pact between Germany, Italy and Japan. Although this was a defensive pact Hitler decided to declare war on the USA anyway after Japan attacked. The other reasons are the lend lease the USA was giving to the UK and the usually blabla about the USA being a Jewish puppet state.

I wouldn't say Hitler could have had it all by that point as Germany was already at war with the Soviet Union at that point. Its rather speculative whether or not the Soviets would have won without US involvement.

As for the second part. The Soviet Union DID attack Japan in august 1945. They launched a highly successful invasion against Japanese occupied Manchuria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...n_of_Manchuria

3 months isn't really an excessive time to move an entire army halfway across the globe.

And don't forget the Chinese. They were fighting the Japanese since 1937 and were still fighting the main body of the Japanese army in 1945.
By the time the SU attacked the Japanese, the Imperial Japanese Army in China had shot its bolt. Most of its best troops were in the Pacific fighting the US and what was left in Manchuria was a hollow shell of its former self.
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