Lord Nelson - Hero or Villan - Historum

rehabnonono · October 8th, 2010, 11:14 PM

Lord Nelson's reputation of recent times has taken a turn for the worse, in both military and private matters. How did his human failings present themselves and how did this affect his actions as a Royal Naval Officer. His great wins over the French navy during the Napoleonic era are his lasting legacy, but is there more to the man than we commonly understand and do they explain his recklessness and burning desire for annihilation.

Two passages to start this discussion...

Quote:

Believing that British commercial interests must not be compromised by American traffic, Nelson commenced a rigid enforcement of the acts and even seized a number of American vessels. He directed his greatest hostility at the American traders and displaying anti-American passion far exceeding anything revealed during the War of Independence itself. He wrote: "I hate them all" and "the rebellious people were trash." In a letter to Mrs Nisbet, his future wife he wrote: "I shall wish the American vessels at the devil and the whole Continent of America to boot."
Nelson's extreme vanity and craving for fame appear incompatible with the Christian concept of humility. After defeating the Danish fleet and burning Copenhagen, Nelson had the arrogance to send the commander of the Danish Naval Academy, copies of a short account of his life.

Wellington found Nelson's vanity repellent. When Wellington and Nelson met each other, the excitable and emotional admiral didn't recognized the aloof general. "He could not know who I was, but he entered at once into a conversation with me, if I can call it conversation, for it was almost all on his side and all about himself, and in, really, a style so vain and silly as to surprise and almost disgust me" - Wellington.

Wanting to reflect his glory at every opportunity, Nelson loved to be seen and shown in his parade uniform, with collection of medals and decorations and a spray of diamonds received from the Sultan of Ottoman Empire.
General John Moore wrote that Nelson looked more like an opera star than a military man.

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napole...e.com/navy.htm

And this from the Smithsonian...

Quote:

While the Battle of the Nile made Nelson a national hero, it was on an October morning seven years later that he became a near divinity in English lore. That day in 1805, Nelson attacked the combined French and Spanish fleets off Cape Trafalgar, between Gibraltar and Cádiz, Spain; in a totally unorthodox maneuver, he split his ships into two parallel lines and sailed them straight at the enemy, cutting it in half. By late afternoon, Napoleon’s navy had been vanquished, though Nelson, struck by a musket ball, would himself expire just hours after the battle began. Every English schoolchild since has learned the story of Nelson’s collapse on his vessel’s bloodstained quarterdeck and his dying request to Lt. Thomas Hardy: “Take care of my dear Lady Hamilton, Hardy; take care of poor Lady Hamilton.”

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...#ixzz11qLbZxUM

Who was poor Lady Hamilton... not his wife?

**Linschoten** · October 9th, 2010, 01:03 AM

Nelson's failings in his private life and his vanity were hardly a secret that needed to be uncovered in 'recent times'! They were notorious, and I remember having to write an essay at school about how his personal character affected his public actions.

Here is a fuller account of Wellington's account of that meeting with him, which I would no doubt have referred to in that essay:

“We were talking of Lord Nelson, and some instances were mentioned of the egotism and vanity that derogated his character. ‘Why,’ said the Duke, ‘I am not surprised at such instances, for Lord Nelson was, in different circumstances, two quite different men, as I myself can vouch, though I only saw him once in my life, and for, perhaps, an hour. It was soon after I returned from India. I went to the Colonial Office in Downing Street [on 12th September, 1805], and there I was shown into a little waiting-room on the right hand, where I found, also waiting to see the Secretary of State, a gentleman, whom from his likeness to his pictures and the loss of an arm, I immediately recognised as Lord Nelson. He could not know who I was, but he entered at once into conversation with me, if I can call it conversation, for it was almost all on his side, and all about himself, and in, really, a style so vain and silly as to surprise and almost disgust me. I suppose something that I happened to say may have made him guess that I was somebody and he went out of the room for a moment, I have no doubt to ask the office-keeper who I was, for when he came back he was altogether a different man, both in manner and matter. All that I had thought a charlatan style had vanished, and he talked of the state of the country and of the aspect and probabilities of affairs on the Continent with a good sense, and a knowledge of subjects both at home and abroad… Now, if the Secretary of State had been punctual, and admitted Lord Nelson in the first quarter of an hour, I should have had the same impression of a light and trivial character that other people have had, but luckily I saw enough to be satisfied that he was really a very superior man."

That his reputation has taken a turn for the worse as a naval commander is highly questionable; the same issues continue to be discussed as they have ever been discussed, and different historians take different attitudes on different matters.

Awesomated88 · October 9th, 2010, 02:13 AM

To me he will always be a brilliant but somewhat flawed commander....

robbielynne · October 9th, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awesomated88

To me he will always be a brilliant but somewhat flawed commander....

I agree...he was brilliant

**Edratman** · October 9th, 2010, 04:10 AM

Why must everyone be either HERO or VILLAIN? Isn't there enough complexity in human nature for people to many thing at the same time?

Here is my thought: a man with considerable talents and flaws. The difference between Nelson and most of us is the word "considerable".

**Linschoten** · October 9th, 2010, 05:25 AM

Absolutely.

Nelson was no gentleman, and on occasion he behaved in a mean and disgraceful fashion, notably toward his wife, and toward the Jacobins who surrendered under amnesty at Naples in 1799. His treatment of Francesco Caracciolo is notorious, there is a fair enough summary of the matter in the Wikipedia article:

Francesco_Caracciolo

Caracciolo was bound to be executed, I think, but if Nelson was going to take the matter into his own hands, he also became responsible for ensuring that this was something more than a revenge killing.

**Spartacuss** · October 9th, 2010, 07:08 AM

Nelson fits the mold of what the public expected and admired in their naval commanders. All England, for whatever differences existed in their society, took great pride in her navy. Nelson was a product of the traditional methods of training and experience that all officers of the RN endured. For him to rise to the level of reverence he enjoys required extraordinary courage, leadership, faith in his king, and a paradoxical willingness to break convention when he saw the need. His personal and political flaws are unimportant to his legacy of accomplishments in the name of his King and country. Indeed, there remains in the regard of the public a winking understanding to his having a "bit o' crumpet". Discussing the personal and political flaws of Nelson the man is proper in considering Nelson the man. But I think applying the flaws to diminish his legacy of service to his nation amounts to nothing more than a pidgeon turd on his statue.

**A7X** · October 9th, 2010, 08:14 AM

I doesn't seem like he had that hard of a job. Trafalgar, sure, but most of the time he was fighting fleets that were inferior in numbers and in quality, like in the battle of the nile. Reminds me of how wellington was fighting starving, demoralized armies each cut off from each other in communications, and had the compete support of the locals, good information, good supplies, and still took 6 years to get to Bordeaux and Toulouse.

Vixen · October 9th, 2010, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edratman

Why must everyone be either HERO or VILLAIN? Isn't there enough complexity in human nature for people to many thing at the same time?

Here is my thought: a man with considerable talents and flaws. The difference between Nelson and most of us is the word "considerable".

I agree here, there are many things I adore about Nelson and many things I despise. I have often felt if i ever met him I'd be undecided between hugging him and slapping him upside the head and in what order. I don't think a person like him can be characrerised by one word or can only be one person. Yes, he was an adulterer, yes he was a brilliant but flawed commander, yes he was sickeningly vain and every human is a combination of contradictions in much the same way. One thing you can say for him is that he was a remarkable PR merchant. Regardless, let he that is without sin cast the first stone, right?

**Linschoten** · October 9th, 2010, 08:29 AM

Quote:

I doesn't seem like he had that hard of a job. Trafalgar, sure, but most of the time he was fighting fleets that were inferior in numbers and in quality, like in the battle of the nile. Reminds me of how wellington was fighting starving, demoralized armies each cut off from each other in communications, and had the compete support of the locals, good information, good supplies, and still took 6 years to get to Bordeaux and Toulouse.

The French actually had more ships at the Nile, with greater fire-power; but there we are. And of course Wellington has been absurdly overestimated, going on as he did from his easy and shamefully slow campaign in the Peninsula to his easy victory against inferior forces and a second-rate commander at Waterloo.