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Old March 29th, 2011, 07:44 AM   #31

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Originally Posted by arras View Post
Ok, so lets look at actual data "as are known now":

Population: Soviet Union (1939) -190 mil. : Germany (1938) -73 mil. (don't know if this includes Austria and Sudeteland)
source

Another source states German population including Austria in 1939 at 76 mil.

Some German allies briefly:
Italy: 40 mil.
Rumania: 15-20 mil.
Hunagry: 5-10 mil.
Finland: 3-4 mil.
Slovakia: 3 mil.
Bulgaria: 6 mil.

And you should take in to consideration population of occupied territories under German control which was used in economy and in limited numbers for military service ...basically most of the continental Europe.

Gross domestic product GDP in 1941: Soviets -359 bil. : Germany -412 bil. (without axis allies and occupied territories)
source


Coal production (probably whole war period): Soviets -590.8 mil. t. : Germany -2,420.3 mil. t.
Iron ore production (probably whole war period): Soviets -71.3 mil. t. : Germany -240.7 mil. t.
Crude oil production (probably whole war period): Soviets -110.6 mil. t. : Germany -33.4 mil. t.
-again Germany without its allies and occupied territories
source


Steel production (1939): Soviets -18.8 mil. t. : Germany -23.3 mil. t.
source

Production of military equipment (probably whole war period):
machine guns: Soviets -1.4 mil. : Germans -0.7 mil.
tanks/SPGs: Soviets -105 000 : Germans -67 000
artilery: Soviets -517 000 : Germans -159 000
trucks: Soviets -197 000 : Germans -346 000
aircraft: Soviets -197 000 : Germans -119 000
source


Battle of Moscow:
soldiers: Soviets -1.2 mil : Germans -1.0 mil
armor: Soviets -1.0 thousand : Germans -1.7 thousand
artilery: Soviets -7.6 thousand : Germans -14.0 thousand
aircraft: Soviets -930 : Germans -550
source


Battle of Stalingrad:
soldiers: Soviets -0.18 mil : Germans -0.27 mil
armor: Soviets -400 : Germans -500
artilery: Soviets -2.2 thousand : Germans -3.0 thousand
aircraft: Soviets -300 : Germans -600

Stalingrad, Soviet counterattack:
soldiers: Soviets -1.1 mil : Germans -1.0 mil
armor: Soviets -1460 : Germans -470
artilery: Soviets -15.5 thousand : Germans -10.2 thousand
aircraft: Soviets -1100 : Germans -700
source


Battle of Kursk:
soldiers: Soviets -1.9 mil : Germans -0.8 mil
armor: Soviets -5.1 thousand : Germans -2.9 thousand
artilery: Soviets -25 thousand : Germans -9.9 thousand
aircraft: Soviets -2.7 thousand : Germans -2.1 thousand
source


Is this that the "sheer weight of numbers"?

What I see is that Soviets skilfully managed to turn their clear economic (and figures above are for Germany alone without its allies and occupied Europe) disadvantage in to military advantage which however was newer larger than 2:1. Mostly less. And you had to take in mind that Germans managed to occupy most productive and most populated areas of USSR during few months at the start of the war. So at the time of battle of Moscow Soviets resources and manpower was even lover than what figures above show.

I disagree, what you have shown is strengths applicable to western soviet union.

The possible manpower superiorty could be as much as 8:1 (including potential female combatants and drawing from all over the soviet union)

What the soviets lacked in military skill, was balanced by numbers, tenacity and patriotic fervor.

the outcome of this war with the soviets was never in doubt, it was just a question of when this was to be achieved. The millions of soviet soldiers taken captive, hardly dented the soviet rescourses.
The Germans could not maintain a conflict with USSR indefinitely.

JC
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Old March 29th, 2011, 07:59 AM   #32
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I know there was, but how feasible was that? We're talking about a population several times larger than Germany.
AFASK, initially the starving was a primary tool for physical elimination. next was sterilisation.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by SPERRO View Post
I disagree, what you have shown is strengths applicable to western soviet union.

The possible manpower superiorty could be as much as 8:1 (including potential female combatants and drawing from all over the soviet union)
Soviet Union (whole) had population of 190 mil. including females and children. Can you show me source for your 8:1? Which would meant 560 mil!!! Apart of some science fiction literature of course.

You either do not know what are you speaking about or you are not serious.

Please get your numbers right before you write something like this.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 10:04 AM   #34

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Originally Posted by arras View Post
Soviet Union (whole) had population of 190 mil. including females and children. Can you show me source for your 8:1? Which would meant 560 mil!!! Apart of some science fiction literature of course.

You either do not know what are you speaking about or you are not serious.

Please get your numbers right before you write something like this.
That was supposed to be 3:1 sorry, and that was a POSSIBLE figure, assuming all men and women take up arms.

Your WIKI figures cant be completely trusted.

Soviet reinforcements were arriving at 500,000 per month from November 1941 (Wiki: Barbarossa).

Statistics and figures are not in contention here, concentrate on the thread and try to be objective..please.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 10:43 AM   #35
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That was supposed to be 3:1 sorry, and that was a POSSIBLE figure, assuming all men and women take up arms.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPERRO View Post
Your WIKI figures cant be completely trusted.

Soviet reinforcements were arriving at 500,000 per month from November 1941 (Wiki: Barbarossa).
So my wiki sources can not by trusted but that do not prevent you from using wiki yourself?
Bye the way my source for Soviet population was not wiki. Link is in my original post.

But let see what wiki tells us: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Soviet_Union]Demography of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
It states Soviet population in 1941 as 196,716,000 ...from "Andreev, E.M., et al., Naselenie Sovetskogo Soiuza, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993"

Quote:
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Statistics and figures are not in contention here, concentrate on the thread and try to be objective..please.
My posts are full of external sources, is that not objective enough? It certainly is not MY subjective opinion.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 01:29 PM   #36

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the eastern front is certinly a facenating event in the war and one i am studying deeply at the moment, their never had been nor is their ever likly to be a war of such scale and savagrey as the ostfront, that word in time truly became a byword for death to germans.

dose anyone else feel that the conflict is largly ignored by western historiens, i don't belive i can recall a single documtary devoted entirly to the conflict that i have seen on the history or military history channel, apart from a few things on stalingrad. a lot of books on the subject have been hitting the market in the last few years helped by the russians opening more of their war archives,
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Old March 29th, 2011, 02:41 PM   #37

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Originally Posted by irishcrusader95 View Post
the eastern front is certinly a facenating event in the war and one i am studying deeply at the moment, their never had been nor is their ever likly to be a war of such scale and savagrey as the ostfront, that word in time truly became a byword for death to germans.

dose anyone else feel that the conflict is largly ignored by western historiens, i don't belive i can recall a single documtary devoted entirly to the conflict that i have seen on the history or military history channel, apart from a few things on stalingrad. a lot of books on the subject have been hitting the market in the last few years helped by the russians opening more of their war archives,
Its the largest land battle ever fought. The struggle is most remembered in most peoples minds, concening the horrific activities of the einsatz gruppen and the millions murdered.

My own interest believe it or not, is the German army in both world conflicts. Obviously the Russian front is a large part of the German army's history. I have no interest in the political side of WW2 but, for clarification of the events, political decisions are woven into the history.

My own Library is specific to the Wehrmacht and its organisation.
you are correct, more information has come to light in recent years, through the release of archive information appertaining to both sides.
I like discussing the topic, but I have no interest in statistics. I have a keen interest in the development of tank warfare as well

JC
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Old March 29th, 2011, 03:00 PM   #38

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Originally Posted by SPERRO View Post
Its the largest land battle ever fought. The struggle is most remembered in most peoples minds, concening the horrific activities of the einsatz gruppen and the millions murdered.

My own interest believe it or not, is the German army in both world conflicts. Obviously the Russian front is a large part of the German army's history. I have no interest in the political side of WW2 but, for clarification of the events, political decisions are woven into the history.

My own Library is specific to the Wehrmacht and its organisation.
you are correct, more information has come to light in recent years, through the release of archive information appertaining to both sides.
I like discussing the topic, but I have no interest in statistics. I have a keen interest in the development of tank warfare as well

JC
I have just recieved a book called God, Honour and Fatherland. It is a Photo history of the Grossdeutchland Panzergrenadier division 42-44. i would fully recommend this title to anyone interested in the subject.

JC
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Old March 30th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #39

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPERRO View Post
I have just recieved a book called God, Honour and Fatherland. It is a Photo history of the Grossdeutchland Panzergrenadier division 42-44. i would fully recommend this title to anyone interested in the subject.

JC
i would be interested, dose amazon have it? i myself am only interested in the german side of the conflict as well, i may read up on some books on the russian side just to understand the war more but the german side is of more interest in seeing the war from the soldiers perspective

i just got 'War without garlands' and can't wait to start, i'm currently reading the forgotten soldier and it is just an incredible read.
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Old March 30th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #40

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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishcrusader95 View Post
i would be interested, dose amazon have it? i myself am only interested in the german side of the conflict as well, i may read up on some books on the russian side just to understand the war more but the german side is of more interest in seeing the war from the soldiers perspective

i just got 'War without garlands' and can't wait to start, i'm currently reading the forgotten soldier and it is just an incredible read.
War without Garlands is an extremely informative and good book. it deals with the first 6 months of Barbarossa and finshes at the time of the 'no step back' orders.

The German army was the most efficient war machine for its time. By December 1941 however, the cream of its highly trained officers and men were gone, either KIA or severely wounded and not fit for further combat.
Robert Kershaw describes Dec 41 as the 'Order of the Frozen flesh'.

JC
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