Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > War and Military History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

War and Military History War and Military History Forum - Warfare, Tactics, and Military Technology over the centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 9th, 2011, 01:46 AM   #11

Tuor's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Vancouver
Posts: 1,639

Ya, the only "urban" combat I can think of in europe in the middle ages is inside buildings attached to the fortifications, and in the streets briefly as the defenders are falling back. I think a reason why there's not much information on urban warfare is this: if the attackers managed to break through or scale the walls and get a foothold, there were far more attackers than defenders and they wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight now that they didn't have the advantage of being on the walls. "During the period prior to the first Crusade, for example, it is a fair generalization that a ratio of four attackers to each defender was a minimum if a general storming of the walls was to be carried out in a successful manner."

That quote is from this article which you might still find interesting. I know I quite enjoyed it
Tuor is offline  
Remove Ads
Old August 9th, 2011, 03:01 AM   #12

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,445
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by david II View Post
The War of St. Sabas. That's really interesting. I've read about this conflict on secondary sources, and they glossed very quickly over the details. Thanks for posting. I wasn't able to get a clear footnote reference regarding it either, do you know if where it is mentioned , as in chroniclers/primary sources?
The various Continuations of William of Tyre, mainly the Rothelin Continuation.

The Gestes des Chiprois Part III, aka. The Templar of Tyre

The Continuations of the Annals of Caffaro - Genoese



Quote:
Galbert of Bruges's The Murder of Charles the Good, ed. by James Bruce Ross has lots of urban conflict -- a mini civil war within the city.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head at the moment...
Ah yes Charles the Good, Ghent and the low countries being considerably urbanised, I shall have to investigate a little further, it is not a particular are I have looked into that much.


Mansourah aswell, a good example of how not to fight in a built up area.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 06:15 AM   #13

Frank81's Avatar
Guanarteme
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Canary Islands-Spain
Posts: 4,744

Constantinople during the crusade assault of 1204 saw heavy urban fight too, I'm looking for good sources.
Frank81 is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 06:22 AM   #14

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,445
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank81 View Post
Constantinople during the crusade assault of 1204 saw heavy urban fight too, I'm looking for good sources.

True. But how much of it was perhaps something more planned and considered, than the usual result of a siege overcoming defences and the city then being looted etc.


Problem is in the West that relative small scale of cities for much of the Middle Ages does not really permit the opportunity or occassion for serious urban warfare. Different ofcourse to the East where much larger cities of Greek/Roman design/defences etc might permit such actions.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #15

Chookie's Avatar
Creature of the Night
 
Joined: Nov 2007
From: Alba
Posts: 7,628
Blog Entries: 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
Anybody know of any other examples?
Just off the top of my head, the Rape of Berwick in 1296 (couldn't find a reference on the web other than “Edward responded by invading Scotland in 1296 and taking the town of Berwick in a particularly bloody attack.” on the Wiki page about Edward I), then there's Battle of Baugé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does Cromwell's siege of Drogheda count?
Chookie is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 01:34 PM   #16

Frank81's Avatar
Guanarteme
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Canary Islands-Spain
Posts: 4,744

In this book is described the Siege of Constantinople of 1204, P. 172-205 The Fourth Crusade: the conquest of ... - Google Libros

Part of the text are covered but I could conclude that citizens didn't took part in the fight due to demoralization. True urban fight was partial, after the capture of portions of the wall, around key places, and only latterly isolated fight everywhere caused by the sacking. However, being the text broken probably I've missed some important combats.

Anyway, probably in "Devastatio Constantinopolitana" we can find more dettailed accounts Contemporary sources for the Fourth ... - Google Libros
Frank81 is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #17

Earl_of_Rochester's Avatar
Scoundrel
¤ Member of the Year ¤
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Perambulating in St James' Park
Posts: 13,378

Just as a sidenote, if you look at the steps in castles and fortresses you'll notice that they spiral upwards to the right. This is so that any attacker coming up the stairs is unable to swing his sword hand effectively as it would hit the wall, but the defender coming down the stairs is able to have a wide sword sweep with an unrestricted angle of attack.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

EoR
Earl_of_Rochester is offline  
Old August 9th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #18

Kirialax's Avatar
Megas Domestikos
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Blachernai
Posts: 4,415
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank81 View Post
Constantinople during the crusade assault of 1204 saw heavy urban fight too, I'm looking for good sources.
Not really. After the crusaders entered the city, they were surprised to find very little resistance.
Kirialax is offline  
Old August 10th, 2011, 06:43 AM   #19

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,445
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chookie View Post
Just off the top of my head, the Rape of Berwick in 1296 (couldn't find a reference on the web other than “Edward responded by invading Scotland in 1296 and taking the town of Berwick in a particularly bloody attack.” on the Wiki page about Edward I), then there's Battle of Baugé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does Cromwell's siege of Drogheda count?

I shall have to have a look.

Drogheda is a bit out of the time frame, and from what I know of it, it seems to fall into the more 'traditional' siege and sack sort of paradigm.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 05:16 PM   #20

Carcyn's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 131

I don’t want to read too much into it, since I'm far from knowing any of the in-depth details of the history, but since Welsh history interests me to begin with, I’ve come across information about a stone mansion referred to as Rhiwaed og, “The Bloody Hill” that supposedly dates from the 12th century in the northern kingdom of Gywnedd, where the famous Rhirid Flaidd was said to have resided.
I understand there were battles there, but don’t know if they were of the urban warfare type that you are researching or actual planned battles, but was curious because of the name the hill earned. I have heard that Rhirid gained quite a reputation of being a warlord. Maybe there were spontaneously erupted civil fights, but the information seems too sparse. I have heard of a contemporary of his, someone named Madog, who was said to have set sail to escape civil unrest there, and eventually came to America.
Carcyn is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > War and Military History

Tags
medieval, urban, warfare



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Urban People...City People Richard Stanbery Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 69 May 13th, 2011 02:13 PM
Urban Warfare in World War I? Pancho35 War and Military History 2 April 13th, 2011 02:38 PM
What's your favorite historical "urban legend"? OpanaPointer General History 52 December 16th, 2010 07:20 AM
How did the Romans establish new urban settlments in their provinces? Commander Agrippa Ancient History 3 May 6th, 2008 09:51 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.