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December 21st, 2011, 07:30 PM
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#1 | | Historian
Joined: Jan 2010 From: Brooklyn Posts: 2,586 | Undefeated Generals and Military Commanders
When a military leader is said to be undefeated, such as Alexander, Scipio or Suvorovo, how much confidence can we have that they were actually undefeated?
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December 21st, 2011, 07:45 PM
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#2 | | Making Dennis Leary Proud
Joined: Jul 2010 From: Georgia, USA Posts: 5,227 |
I would think "undefeated" would most likely apply to campaign success rather than individual battles. I would base this on the premise that defeat is the failure to obtain one's objective. You know, "Won the battle, lost the war."
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December 21st, 2011, 07:47 PM
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#3 | | Historian
Joined: Jan 2010 From: Brooklyn Posts: 2,586 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacuss  I would think "undefeated" would most likely apply to campaign success rather than individual battles. I would base this on the premise that defeat is the failure to obtain one's objective. You know, "Won the battle, lost the war." | Good point becasue victory/defeat in a single battle could very well be a matter of opinion in many contests with close outcomes.....
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December 21st, 2011, 07:54 PM
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#4 | | Making Dennis Leary Proud
Joined: Jul 2010 From: Georgia, USA Posts: 5,227 |
Absolutely. I think Borodino would be an example of that.
I think Tsubodai meets the criteria. I think he lost a couple of battles, but never lost a campaign. And no one get cute with semantics... his being recalled after the death of Ogedai Khan made that campaign incomplete while successful to that point.
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December 21st, 2011, 07:58 PM
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#5 | | Suspended until June 5th, 2013
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,538 |
Alexander Suvorov never lost a battle  | | | |
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December 21st, 2011, 08:01 PM
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#6 | | Making Dennis Leary Proud
Joined: Jul 2010 From: Georgia, USA Posts: 5,227 |
Suvorov... I'd like to get my hands on a book or two on him. To not lose a battle during his time is remarkable. All I know about him is the usual wiki hunt.
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December 21st, 2011, 08:05 PM
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#7 | | Historian
Joined: Jan 2010 From: Brooklyn Posts: 2,586 | Quote:
Originally Posted by azato2000 Alexander Suvorov never lost a battle | Yes, but did he ever loose an engagment that he was responsible for as he was rising the ranks to general?
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December 21st, 2011, 08:30 PM
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#8 | | Historian
Joined: May 2011 Posts: 2,389 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert165 Yes, but did he ever loose an engagment that he was responsible for as he was rising the ranks to general? | Nope. His "talents" had been rediscovered only during pre-WW2 Soviet time cause of Soviet-Polish political hostility. Actually Russians did the same things not a long time ago by starting annually celebrate "new" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Day_(Russia) The reason (Russian-Polish diplomatic hostility) is still same.  | | | |
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December 21st, 2011, 09:06 PM
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#10 | | Historian
Joined: Jan 2010 From: Brooklyn Posts: 2,586 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Lors Nope. His "talents" had been rediscovered only during pre-WW2 Soviet time cause of Soviet-Polish political hostility. Actually Russians did the same things not a long time ago by starting annually celebrate "new" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Day_(Russia) The reason (Russian-Polish diplomatic hostility) is still same. | wow, if he never lost an engagement thats pretty impressive
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