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Old January 23rd, 2012, 04:17 PM   #781

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Blood writes...
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So allies must fight side by side to be traditional? Were the Germans and Japanese traditional allies.
In the Pacific they were, particularly subs and raiders.

Blood writes...
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Who claimed Stalin had no idea when they were invading?
I thought it was you... yep looks like you wrote...
Quote:
It was part of my effort to indicate that Stalin had no idea he was about to be attacked at that moment in history. Do try to keep up.
Blood, in one sentence you assert that Stalin had no idea, in the next that he had known only when they crossed his borders. You even contradict your own statement by saying he had better prior knowledge than anyone.
Here is the remainder of the text

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Who claimed Stalin had no idea when they were invading? I think when 120 divisions of armor and infantry cross your border it's a pretty good clue. He obviously never knew exactly when given Soviet trainloads of goodies heading into Germany the days prior. Stalin was told several times that invasion was immanent. He knew better than everyone though.
In all this, did you ever stop to think that the invasion date was not something Stalin controlled anyway and that he did not want to be reacting to every message from Britain or Japan... where they not helping him also, at least that the Nazis were sending him what he needed to be self sufficient? So he played the good neighbor because he knew that the longer they delayed the better his army's chances... and lo and behold... the Nazis delayed Barbarossa until it was too late. Stalin would have been more worried if the Heer had initiated Barbarossa at the end of winter.
Stalin knew only too well...
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On 5 May 1941, Stalin gave a speech to graduates of military academies in Moscow declaring: "War with Germany is inevitable. If comrade Molotov can manage to postpone the war for two or three months that will be our good fortune, but you yourselves must go off and take measures to raise the combat readiness of our forces"
Finally I wrote
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Stalin knew that the single biggest determinant of survival was to be the battle for Moscow. Here he could afford to lose horrendous numbers of men to slow down the Nazi advance, because the Japanese had released his million strong Siberians for service in the East, when they attacked Pearl. Stalin knew then that the Japanese could not afford to invade the Soviet Union.
Blood wrote
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It was actually 40 divisions of hard men.
Read it again "...the Japanese had released his million strong Siberians for service in the East, when they attacked Pearl."

In fact the true number of additional divisions Stalin built up after that time was far more.

Quote:
This estimate proved wrong, as Stalin transferred fresh divisions from Siberia and the Far East, relying on intelligence from his spy, Richard Sorge, which indicated that Japan would not attack the Soviet Union. The Red Army had accumulated a 58-division reserve by early December,[36] when the offensive proposed by Zhukov and Vasilevsky was finally approved by Stalin.[59
A crucial battle before Moscow was fought by the 1st Shock Army whose rifle divisions were made up primarily of naval personnel of the Pacific fleet. Here Soviet marines from Vladivostok had crushed the Nazis at the gates of Moscow.

Zukov writes
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By 28 November, the German 7th Panzer Division had seized a bridgehead across the Moscow-Volga Canal—the last major obstacle before Moscow—and stood less than 35*km (22*mi) from the Kremlin;[44] but a powerful counterattack by the 1st Shock Army drove them back across the canal.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rehabnonono View Post
Blood writes...

I thought it was you... yep looks like you wrote...


Blood, in one sentence you assert that Stalin had no idea, in the next that he had known only when they crossed his borders. You even contradict your own statement by saying he had better prior knowledge than anyone.


He did have solid warnings of Germany about to invade. He even had a British spy in Bletchley Park. He believed none of it and if nothing else his lack of readiness supports this. When you say "he never knew when he was being invaded" I took it to mean when the German army were actually invading. My English is a long way from 100%.

Read it again "...the Japanese had released his million strong Siberians for service in the East, when they attacked Pearl."

In fact the true number of additional divisions Stalin built up after that time was far more.

No one disputes that. I said he immediately transferred 40 Siberian divisions when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He had a bottomless pit of recruits to draw from. There was no shortage of Soviet men. The Siberians were tailor made for the Eastern front, however he was not dumb enough to immediately withdraw all of them simultaneously from defending from a possible Japanese threat. The Japanese and Germans could have cooked up anything. Moving 1 million men does not happen overnight in a collection of countries that was the size of The Soviet Union


Blood.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by rehabnonono View Post
Blood writes...
In the Pacific they were, particularly subs and raiders.

Zukov writes
Is what you're saying The Japanese and German Navy were "traditional" allies, and the German Army and Airforce along with the Japanese Air Force and Army were Non Traditional allies.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 08:08 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Bloodandsteel View Post
Blood.
I hope it's not a discover for you but just for the case I'd like to remind you that the entire essence of war is blood. Even so-called ''Cold'' war shed blood, the difference was that they were just using proxies instead. Like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and many others. There are no bloodless wars.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 08:20 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by Montage View Post
I hope it's not a discover for you but just for the case I'd like to remind you that the entire essence of war is blood. Even so-called ''Cold'' war shed blood, the difference was that they were just using proxies instead. Like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and many others. There are no bloodless wars.

The entire essence of war is to break your opponents will to fight, and remove the obsticals for the failed but, desired political aims of your country. I don't get why you thought I needed the rest of your post at all.

Last edited by Bloodandsteel; January 25th, 2012 at 08:26 AM.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #786
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Double post.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #787

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You support England so much that I'm beginning to think you aren't serious. If you aren't, stop, its not funny anymore. If you are, still stop.
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Old January 26th, 2012, 06:01 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by Bloodandsteel View Post
The entire essence of war is to break your opponents will to fight, and remove the obsticals for the failed but, desired political aims of your country. I don't get why you thought I needed the rest of your post at all.
Nope, that's the aim of war. And the essence of it is blood, because this aim achives via shedding the blood. It's like in football, the essence of it is scoring, the aim to make more scores than your opponet and you will never win the game if you haven't scored at least one time. So you can't win the war i.e. achive its main aim without following of its essence.
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Old January 26th, 2012, 08:29 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Montage View Post
Nope, that's the aim of war. And the essence of it is blood, because this aim achives via shedding the blood. It's like in football, the essence of it is scoring, the aim to make more scores than your opponet and you will never win the game if you haven't scored at least one time. So you can't win the war i.e. achive its main aim without following of its essence.
The dead do not always shed blood. also...

In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

Sun Tzu The Art of War.




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Old January 26th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #790

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodandsteel View Post
The dead do not always shed blood. also...

In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

Sun Tzu The Art of War.
Of course that's an ideal victory, but when do such victories occur? That's one distinction between Western thinkers on war and Eastern ones.

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Originally Posted by Bloodandsteel View Post
Is what you're saying The Japanese and German Navy were "traditional" allies, and the German Army and Airforce along with the Japanese Air Force and Army were Non Traditional allies.
I've never heard this before. The Japanese navy held the British up as their model, not the Germans - and the Japanese fought the Germans in WWI. After the war, Germany helped Japan develop its airforce - the Zero fighter was one result of this collaboration. So I'd think it be more correct to reverse the order of "traditional" allies - although IIRC Japan's army held the Prussians up as a model too.
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