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Old January 24th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mofli87 View Post
this was the war...but it wasn't luftwaffe speciality..

.
They did start it.
I can give you a sample of one Polish fighter pilot who after shooting down German opponent in September 1939, landed next to him and deliver first aid to the wounded opponents. After a few day of war and witnessing what was happening around, he did not do it again.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 03:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Perhaps he also stated wrong size of boots of same unterofficer?
If the size is important for the story it would be good to know the correct size. Don't you think so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Be serious, Beorna. For all this Bohler was awarded departmental prize of University of Cologne for his work “Wehrmacht war crimes in Poland” You have a very incompetent University Professors in Germany if they give such prize for job you called “junk”.
He is also member Committee for History of WWII but they are also very inept people if they allow him to be a member of such committee. How could they do that for “junky” writer, Beorna?
If J.T Goss as a former Polish jew writes some critics about Poland, Poles are trying to make a law against him. If Germans or others critizise Germany, they get a prize in Germany!
BTW, I am not critizising all of Böhler's works, I am critizising this work and I have shown you the mistakes. It is indeed a scandal, that he was honored for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
And as you obviously know better than Bholer so you perhaps could say how many German was killed in, what you call “pogroms” . Where-name the place and tell us your version? Please compare them with the number of Poles killed by their German neighbors. Please do not use the word ‘Pogrom” as you are offending the Jewish victims of such incidents. Please state facts so I can answer your insinuation. Of course there were German civilian victim in September 1939, its true, but their number was relatively low in comparison to murdered Poles. German “civilians” very more often than not, a bands of armed V columnist.
Somebody who palliated the Kielce massacre is not in the position to tell me what words i am allowed to use and which not.
Yes, yes, the 5th column, the women and children of course, too. And you are talking about German white-washing!
We have already tried to speak about it and it ended as usual in a closed thread. I wrote you above, what critics I have for Böhler. And as you can see in my postings here, I do not deny war crimes. But it is a difference, whether they were part of a Vernichtungskrieg like Böhler concluded or if the crimes were of motivational, situational and psychological factors, that "aid and abet an uninhibited readiness to use violence" and resulted as well by an inexperienced and psychological exhausted Wehrmacht. If you explain German war crimes just by nazi ideology, you 'll get problems to explain war crimes of other nations, yes even if you find crimes of wehrmacht soldiers, who were in opposite to the nazis.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #53
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beorna;907932]
Quote:
Somebody who palliated the Kielce massacre is not in the position to tell me what words i am allowed to use and which not.
Once again you are using lies to support your argument. I asked you previously and asjk you once again to supply thread and post no. supporting your allegation. Until you do it, I have a full right to call you a lier and demand appology.

beorna;907932]
Quote:
Yes, yes, the 5th column, the women and children of course, too. And you are talking about German white-washing!
.
[/quote]

Once again, state the facts, date and places
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Old January 24th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Edward View Post

Once again you are using lies to support your argument. I asked you previously and asjk you once again to supply thread and post no. supporting your allegation. Until you do it, I have a full right to call you a lier and demand appology.
You called me a liar so often. I really don't care about! And you insulted me so often, that you are again not in the position to demand anything, especially not a apology.
But here is again your posting about Kielce you asked for,
"The interesting aspect of these pogroms, which according to Morgenthau report really happened is concentration of these anti-Semitic excesses in Eastern Poland on the area affected by war wit Bolshevik Russia. Many of these pogroms were politically rather than racially motivated. Jews were often accused (sometime right, more often not) of cooperation or spying for Bolshevik forces."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Once again, state the facts, date and places
You had already opened a thread about this and derailed it untill it was closed. The information you now ask for, was already given in that thread.
So you just have to read it.

So let us go back to the OP

Last edited by beorna; January 24th, 2012 at 04:02 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #55

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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
If J.T Goss as a former Polish jew writes some critics about Poland, Poles are trying to make a law against him. If Germans or others critizise Germany, they get a prize in Germany!
Ahem. If I may just get a word in edgewise? (Lovely winter morning, had a good night's sleep guys, chilled out?)

Beorna, some time back I promised to explain why Gross isn't a reliable source, and then forgot about it (I'm sorry).

Well, there have been several critical analysis of his writings by Polish historians (eg. dr.Gontarczyk, and historians from the National Institute of Rememberance) Unfortunately, they haven't been translated into English or German (a major failing!). At least I haven't found a translated version, so I'll just try to sum up what I read for you.

There are factual errors in Mr.Gross's books (like the famous photo that has been proved to present something completely else than he claims) which have been pointed out and proved beyond any doubt by our historians. Yet he never took care to correct them in the reprints of his books, he just goes on repeating them.

However, the really major problem with Mr.Gross methodology is that he considers the events which happened in eastern territories of the II Polish Republic utterly or largely disregarding the CONTEXT (something a historian worthy of the name never does).

As you're probably aware, the situation in Polish Kresy (Western Lithuania, Western Belarus and Western Ukraine) was highly complex for two reasons:

- these territories had always been ethnically mixed (inhabited by
Lithuanians/Belarusians/Ukrainians/Poles/Jews)

- they experienced THREE successive occupations of a different kind:
first the Soviet invasion of 1939/41 (following Ribbentrop-Molotov)
second, German occupation (41/44)
third, Soviet again (as the Red Army pushed the Germans westward)

Each of the successive occupations was extremely harsh and created enormous tensions and pressures (my folks, both from fathers and mothers side come from that region, so I was interested and read loads on the issue)

Now the plain fact is that a substantial part of the Jewish population of these territories was pro Soviet (for a number of reasons, one of them being that the Jews inhabiting these areas were among the poorest of the Jewsh population in Poland) On 17 September many of them were seen not only welcoming the invading Red Army, tearing Polish national emblems off the walls an trampling on them, tearing the red and white flag in two to make themselves red armbands, but also: carrying out executions and killing members of Polish local authorities, school teachers, landowners etc. and later on assisting NKVD in carrying out mass arrests and deportations.

Ive always strongly opposed the stereotype communist regime = Jews, as I told you, we had plenty of 100% ethnically Polish SOBs. However, one cant deny that in the eastern territories the local people who joined the Soviet structures or NKVD were mainly of Jewish origin.

Later on the same scenario repeated itself as the Red Army advanced west.
In Kresy a large proportion of SB men (NKVD run special services) were of Jewish origin. They were the people who rounded up, arrested and inhumanly tortured Polish anti German partizans from the Home Army or WIN.

This is something Gross consistently neglects to mention. He "forgets" to say that the overwhelming majority of 'Jews' killed by the "Poles" were in fact killed no for their ethnicity, but for collaborating with the Soviets and for crimes against local Polish population or members of the Polish underground. This wasnt about racism of ethnicity, but about resisting Soviet domination and about political struggle.

This is not to say there were no Polish acts of violence against innocent Jewish people and I dont in any way defend these.
However, the way Gross presents the described period has little in common with reality and objective historical research.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 02:30 AM   #56
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Beorna, you said in post 52
Quote:
“Somebody who palliated the Kielce massacre is not in the position to tell me what words i am allowed to use and which not”.
In post 54 for support of this allegation, you provide my text as below:
Quote:
"The interesting aspect of these pogroms, which according to Morgenthau report really happened is concentration of these anti-Semitic excesses in Eastern Poland on the area affected by war with Bolshevik Russia. Many of these pogroms were politically rather than racially motivated. Jews were often accused (sometime right, more often not) of cooperation or spying for Bolshevik forces."

Now we have a look at the dates;
Morgenthau report was published in on October 3, 1919
Kielce incident was July 4, 1948
So, my comments on Morgenthau report from1939 you used in reference to incident which happened 29 years later. Not bad, Beorna. Congratulation. Your dishonesty is very evident here. I have a full right to cal you liar until you prove your allegation from post 52 or you withdraw it and apologise.
So, be so nice and keep looking for my answer on Kielce incident. Please, do not forget to provide post number so everyone could verify your honesty.
As my text regarding Morgenthau report is concern, could you tell us was is untrue in it? You can find reference to Morgenthau report on the net.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 04:18 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Beorna, you said in post 52

In post 54 for support of this allegation, you provide my text as below:

Now we have a look at the dates;
Morgenthau report was published in on October 3, 1919
Kielce incident was July 4, 1948
So, my comments on Morgenthau report from1939 you used in reference to incident which happened 29 years later. Not bad, Beorna. Congratulation. Your dishonesty is very evident here. I have a full right to cal you liar until you prove your allegation from post 52 or you withdraw it and apologise.
So, be so nice and keep looking for my answer on Kielce incident. Please, do not forget to provide post number so everyone could verify your honesty.
As my text regarding Morgenthau report is concern, could you tell us was is untrue in it? You can find reference to Morgenthau report on the net.
It was your answer. i can't give more than this. It was the answer to my quote about Kielce. I can't look inside your head. Nevertheless, you wrote, that Jews were sometimes accused correctly and you wrote this in connection with the pogroms. So how shall I interpretate it in another way than that you think that they got what they derserved? BTW you wrote as well that jews in Bereza Kartuska were imprisoned for tax crimes and so justified. I as well told you that the nazis used exactly the same accusation for imprisoning jews in germany.But I think it is needless to repeat it on and on to you. You do not accept, what you don't like to be.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 04:34 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Ahem. If I may just get a word in edgewise? (Lovely winter morning, had a good night's sleep guys, chilled out?)

Beorna, some time back I promised to explain why Gross isn't a reliable source, and then forgot about it (I'm sorry).

Well, there have been several critical analysis of his writings by Polish historians (eg. dr.Gontarczyk, and historians from the National Institute of Rememberance) Unfortunately, they haven't been translated into English or German (a major failing!). At least I haven't found a translated version, so I'll just try to sum up what I read for you.

There are factual errors in Mr.Gross's books (like the famous photo that has been proved to present something completely else than he claims) which have been pointed out and proved beyond any doubt by our historians. Yet he never took care to correct them in the reprints of his books, he just goes on repeating them.

However, the really major problem with Mr.Gross methodology is that he considers the events which happened in eastern territories of the II Polish Republic utterly or largely disregarding the CONTEXT (something a historian worthy of the name never does).

As you're probably aware, the situation in Polish Kresy (Western Lithuania, Western Belarus and Western Ukraine) was highly complex for two reasons:

- these territories had always been ethnically mixed (inhabited by
Lithuanians/Belarusians/Ukrainians/Poles/Jews)

- they experienced THREE successive occupations of a different kind:
first the Soviet invasion of 1939/41 (following Ribbentrop-Molotov)
second, German occupation (41/44)
third, Soviet again (as the Red Army pushed the Germans westward)

Each of the successive occupations was extremely harsh and created enormous tensions and pressures (my folks, both from fathers and mothers side come from that region, so I was interested and read loads on the issue)

Now the plain fact is that a substantial part of the Jewish population of these territories was pro Soviet (for a number of reasons, one of them being that the Jews inhabiting these areas were among the poorest of the Jewsh population in Poland) On 17 September many of them were seen not only welcoming the invading Red Army, tearing Polish national emblems off the walls an trampling on them, tearing the red and white flag in two to make themselves red armbands, but also: carrying out executions and killing members of Polish local authorities, school teachers, landowners etc. and later on assisting NKVD in carrying out mass arrests and deportations.

Ive always strongly opposed the stereotype communist regime = Jews, as I told you, we had plenty of 100% ethnically Polish SOBs. However, one cant deny that in the eastern territories the local people who joined the Soviet structures or NKVD were mainly of Jewish origin.

Later on the same scenario repeated itself as the Red Army advanced west.
In Kresy a large proportion of SB men (NKVD run special services) were of Jewish origin. They were the people who rounded up, arrested and inhumanly tortured Polish anti German partizans from the Home Army or WIN.

This is something Gross consistently neglects to mention. He "forgets" to say that the overwhelming majority of 'Jews' killed by the "Poles" were in fact killed no for their ethnicity, but for collaborating with the Soviets and for crimes against local Polish population or members of the Polish underground. This wasnt about racism of ethnicity, but about resisting Soviet domination and about political struggle.

This is not to say there were no Polish acts of violence against innocent Jewish people and I dont in any way defend these.
However, the way Gross presents the described period has little in common with reality and objective historical research.
I havn't read the whole book of Gross, just some passages. But at least it seems, that the IPN has verified 22 pogroms like Jedwabne. So different to some Poles, I don't name some here, 22 are not single cases. And even if there was a cooperation with communists, it is just an explanation and of course not an excuse. I suppose you agree here. In another thread I wrote about a former director of Yad Vashem, who participated in pogroms against Poles and Lithuanians. So I agree with you, that there is not only a clear white and clear black side. This is the same for the time under soviet rule. of course Jews participated as Communists in crimes against Germans and of Poles, e.g of the AK.

I can't say whether Gross is completely correct or not. At least he is responsible for a discussion about Polish collaboration, which you never really had. It's perhaps comparable with our discussion since 2000 about Wehrmacht crimes. If Polish people are really interested in it, then they go on with the research.
BTW, what I find curious about the jedwabne discussion is, that Poles allways accepted the number of 1600 murdered jews, as long as the germans were made responsible for it (or were alone made responsible for it). When I looked for Ed's postings I found one, where he said, that Jedwabne was too small and that it was not possible, that Poles could have killed 1600 jews. Well, if you knew this, then I ask why it should have been possible for the germans till 2000? So now the IPN reduced the number of murdered jews to 300, because Poles are at least participating. Don't you think, too, that this is curious?

So nevertheless, thanks for your words about Gross and now we should come back to the OP.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #59
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[quote=beorna;909295]It was your answer. i can't give more than this. It was the answer to my quote about Kielce.quote]
No it was not. If yes please supply post number, thread
Yes,beorna, the true is that you deliberatly misrepresented it it. You are a very dishonest person, Beorna,

Last edited by Edward; January 25th, 2012 at 05:35 AM.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by antonina View Post

Now the plain fact is that a substantial part of the Jewish population of these territories was pro Soviet (for a number of reasons, one of them being that the Jews inhabiting these areas were among the poorest of the Jewsh population in Poland) On 17 September many of them were seen not only welcoming the invading Red Army, tearing Polish national emblems off the walls an trampling on them, tearing the red and white flag in two to make themselves red armbands, but also: carrying out executions and killing members of Polish local authorities, school teachers, landowners etc. and later on assisting NKVD in carrying out mass arrests and deportations.
the prosoviet jewish mentality is not because the jews were cruels or geneticly bolsheviks just the conseuence of the antijewish policies of the last decades/centuries in this region (central/eastern eu....as they were opressed by the actual ruling regime they had not much other choice than waiting the soviets...

The poles antigerman/antirussian mentality in 1918-19 was just like the consequence of the previous decades centuries (similarly tearing german/russian emblems off, carrying out executions ect ect..)
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