Frost

Hi guys, I apologize if this isn't the correct location for a topic like this. Basically, my question concerns the sinking a dreadnought battleship. I'll try to give a little background to the inquiry so it doesn't come across as too ridiculous (because I'm sure it will).

I am currently researching information on WWI British dreadnoughts for a novel that I'm writing; I came across these forums during my search, and felt that some members might be able to help me out. The book in and of itself, other than a short scene, has very little to do with dreadnoughts, but I would still prefer it to be as accurate as possible. At the moment, the scene involves two crew mates sinking the ship by setting off an explosion below the deck in the stern.

Given that the ship is much like the HMS Warspite (03) and armed as if it were commissioned during WWI, how difficult would this be to pull off? Was there anything already in (or near) the stern that could aid them in doing something like this (torpedoes, oil, coal)? In short, if such a feat is too outrageous, I want to scrap the idea right away—but am not knowledgeable enough to know if that is really the case.

I really appreciate the help!
-f

Triceratops

Hi Frost;

Only two British Dreadnoughts were lost in WW1, HMS Audacious, struck a mine and sank in 1914, HMS Vanguard, blew up while in harbour at Scapa Flow.

The only other Dreadnoughts that were sunk were the Austro-Hungarian Svent Istvan, sunk by Italian MTBs, and the Viribus Unitas, sunk by Italian divers at the very end of the war.

Naomasa298

I'm no expert on the matter but I would have thought scuttling charges in a single location would be ineffective due to the watertight compartments. Unless the explosion also detonated an ammunition magazine, but if this was in the stern, it would most likely blow that section off - the ship could still be afloat at that point, although it would obviously be missing its propeller and rudder.

The Queen Elizabeth class ships as initially commissioned did have two rear turrets, so there would have been an ammunition magazine serving them. That would be a little forward of the stern but maybe that would be suitable for your scenario?

Triceratops

A magazine explosion would work. That indeed was the probable cause of the loss of the Vanguard.

There is another one, the Russian Empress Maria, also a magazine explosion, in Sevastapol harbour.

Triceratops

Loss of HMS VANGUARD

Nemowork

A boiler explosion would cripple the ship but not sink it, the easiest method to cause a problem is a coal bunker fire but again thats aggravating to the smooth running of the ship and rarely fatal.

As has been mentioned above an explosion in one of the rear ammunition magazines is your best bet, preferably while the watertight doors are open.

I'm assuming this is sabotage rather than ammunition mishandling?

In that case a misfire in one of the guns during a test firing might create a large enoug explosion to set off a chain reaction down the magazine feed but thats a pretty rare circumstance since all the safety cutoofs would have to be locked open or ammunition stacked in the turret, that wasnt unknown in combat situations but might be rare in peacetime training.

On the other hand gunnery drill was notably lax and inefficient in the Royal Navy pre-WW1 so that sort of mistake might be possible?

Belisarius

This might be useful to you

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/...itt_100dpi.jpg

It's the plan of The Frederick the Great, showing where the magazines were. Oher Dreadnaughts would have had similar configurations. The website itself is interesting.

Frost

Thank you guys so much for the quick responses! All of these links/facts are extremely helpful.

It seems like setting off an explosion in the rearmost ammunition magazine is the winner (it is sabotage). Assuming the magazine works like the ones here, what would be the simplest way to cause the cordite/projectiles to explode? In my rough draft of the scene, a pistol is used to detonate the initial explosion; however, that's my imagination thinking in Hollywood-action-flick mode, and I don't know if it is feasible.

Nemowork

If your guy is any good at chemistry a simple time fuse would do the job. I dont know the exact composition but theres a small charge of explosive, you squeeze one end with pliers or similar, that breaks the glass vial inside the case which contains slow acid which eats through the restaining pin which sets off the charge.

Thats more of a WW2 sneaky SOE device but perfectly feasible, cordite or other propellant charges in those days were soft bagged, think of a short bolster pillow stuffed with explosive.
All he has to do is secrete the pen sized device on his person as he enters the magazine for whatever excuse, set off the timer and then push it into the explosive charge, preferably round the back out of public view.

He's then got however long he set the fuse for (theyre chemical not mechanical so its approximate not precise) to make his excuses and get out.


Anybody got any other suggestions?

Greyter

Did HMS Queen Mary not fall into this category ? Lost to German naval gunfire at Jutland. Maybe she was a "super-Dreadnought".