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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:38 AM   #51

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Both the German and Soviet numbers that I gave are front strengths only. They represent the troops allocated directly at or very near the front. For total armed force strengths, check the other numbers.
But that forgets, that the front strength of the Axis gives the available number of troops for this campaign, while the soviet number excludes the reserves in the rear.
You just have to see the casualties. germany had 800,000 out of ca. 3 million and was exhausted in the end of 1941. Russia had more than 4 million losses out of an original number of 2.7 or 2.9m?
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:53 AM   #52
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population Germany 1937 69.32 million
austria 6.65 million
--------------------
Great german empire 1938 75,97 millions
Sudetenland ca. 3 million.
There were 3.1 million on the Deutsche Volksliste in Poland, of course most of them no germans. there were 750,000 estimated in Romania, 600,000 in Hungary, 550,000 in Yugoslavia. Of course you can add the germans in Alsac-Lorraine as well.

The territory of recent Germany had 60 million inhabitants, 40% of them, 11,8millions served in the Wehrmacht.
From the eastern territories, were 9.25 million lived, 56% were recruited, 2.5 million. Austria with 6.65million inhabitants had 1.3 million soldiers. So 15.7 millions were conscripted. From the Sudetenland and other eastern territories were 1.4 million conscripted. Others made 260,000, among them ca. 130,000 from Alsac-Lorraine, the malgre-nous (including W-SS). From annected territories of Poland 250,000 were conscripted, 90,000 deserted. Additional to this 900,000 served in the waffen-SS, 300,000 of them Volksdeutsche and 200,000 foreigners.

If you look that 3.1 million were conscripted on the Volksliste, then it would make 1.5 million males and if I take 40%, we should expect 600,000 conscripted, if we take 55% nearly 800,000 conscripted, but it were just 20%.
The Volksdeutschen weren't allowed to be drafted. It needed several negotiations, before the germans were allowed to recruit some voluntarily for the SS. Only in the end of the war germany was able to recruit non volunteers from these Volksdeutschen. But these troops were often problematic, cos many spoke no German. Especially those balkan-germans remained on the balkans for anti-partisan fighting.

So if you count all germans together you may come above 80 millions, but not to 100 and not all germans abroad supported Germany. We have as well incidents, were germans went into the Romanian and Hungarian army, to stay at home and again, especially the Volksdeutschen became a late reservoir of soldiers, too late.

And this was comparable with the osttruppen and ostlegionen. In 1943/44 there were around 500,000 osttruppen, but Hitler ordered to use them in the west. They were in wide parts no front units. On the eastern front served e.g just 53,000 in the Ostlegionen.
Nazi_Germany Nazi_Germany
Population over 90 ml. in 1941

Statistics and Numbers
Germany population 80.6 ml.in 1939 add to this number territory annexed from Poland. Czech Protectorate and Alsatia and loraine and yoy will have 90 ml. of population in 1941. All has been subject to military service.

Volksliste Volksliste
Volksdeutche of first category were automaticly subject to military service.
later in the war, all volksdeutche were conscripted.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:59 AM   #53
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Rape of Nanking also proves the Japanese were far more evil than British imperialism. Last time I checked the redcoats never went on a mass murdering killing and raping spree with a sword decapitation contest. Including bayonetting women and children. Over running hospitals and bayonetting doctors, nurses and patients. The use of 'comfort women' and using live humans for medical research without anasthetic.
That's setting a pretty low standard after all. And doing it for for British imperialism as a whole makes you rather back-footed after all.

The British record is more centered around hunger-policies, things that occurred during the Mau-mau rebellion (some of which certainly was more like the Japanese mutilation cases), and pioneering aerial bombardment as cost-effective colonial crowd-control.

The British are also remembered for inventing the principles of "small wars", to frame colonial conflicts in such a way that the darkies were simply too primitive for it to be useful to maintain any distinction between military and civilians, so they were all fair game. Arguable other European powers could beat the UK at sheer callous disregard for human lives, but it was the UK play-book they were copying.

Also, the transatlantic slave trade and New World plantation slavery, with all their attendant miseries; Britian being a main beneficiary of...

Japan should at least be possible to absolve regarding industrial scale slaving.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 02:06 AM   #54

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Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Population over 90 ml. in 1941

Statistics and Numbers
Germany population 80.6 ml.in 1939 add to this number territory annexed from Poland. Czech Protectorate and Alsatia and loraine and yoy will have 90 ml. of population in 1941. All has been subject to military service.

Volksliste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volksdeutche of first category were automaticly subject to military service.
later in the war, all volksdeutche were conscripted.
Unfortunately we have in your link just the years. So are the 78m with or without the Sudetenland? Do the 80.6 already include Poland or not?
There were as well annexions in 1940 and 1941 from France and former Yugoslavia. But as i have shown in my figures above, the population was mainly unwilling if not hostile. So the 90 millions from your other link don't show the real picture, but the nazi propaganda.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #55
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Overwhelming superiority for the Russians would come after Stalingrad where they were able to mobilise on a large scale, whilst the Germans were bleeding dry from the previous campaigns and the re-shifting of forces to compensate for other arena's, like France and Germany itself.
That's about right. I would say that even earlier, from the end of 1942 Soviet enjoyed numerical superiority due to better (more brutal) mobilisation, not because of bigger population base. up to mid of 1942 Axis had smal numerical adventage, but they still lost the Battle of Moscow.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #56
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That's about right. I would say that even earlier, from the end of 1942 Soviet enjoyed numerical superiority due to better (more brutal) mobilisation, not because of bigger population base. up to mid of 1942 Axis had smal numerical adventage, but they still lost the Battle of Moscow.
against the soviets perhaps...but they fought against the UK as well.

obviously the eastern european workforce was much cheaper then the western
european. (hitler had to feed the french preventing them to uprise, Stalin deported the whole chechen -and a dozen more- nation to labour camps to work.) So in this way the soviet war economy was much more effective.

an other way to compare the wehrmacht and the red army: in how many days was an average german/russian soldier in "fronturlaub" during the war?
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Old June 20th, 2012, 04:38 AM   #57
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against the soviets perhaps...but they fought against the UK as well.

obviously the eastern european workforce was much cheaper then the western
european. (hitler had to feed the french preventing them to uprise, Stalin deported the whole chechen -and a dozen more- nation to labour camps to work.) So in this way the soviet war economy was much more effective.

an other way to compare the wehrmacht and the red army: in how many days was an average german/russian soldier in "fronturlaub" during the war?
what was the fighting against british in 1941-1942? Battle of Atlantic and very limited German presence in Africa. Bombing of Germany did not really started before 1943.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #58
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Unfortunately we have in your link just the years. So are the 78m with or without the Sudetenland? Do the 80.6 already include Poland or not?
There were as well annexions in 1940 and 1941 from France and former Yugoslavia. But as i have shown in my figures above, the population was mainly unwilling if not hostile. So the 90 millions from your other link don't show the real picture, but the nazi propaganda.
year 1941 will include all german annexation. hostile local population has been expelled from annexed areas. refer to "World War II related deportations, expulsions and similar displacements"
World_War_II_evacuation_and_expulsion World_War_II_evacuation_and_expulsion

You could also refer to German census from 17 may 1939- Population 79.375.281.
This cenzus confirm that my numbers are right (plus or minus couple of percent)

Last edited by Edward; June 20th, 2012 at 05:06 AM.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 05:05 AM   #59

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
France fell in 2 weeks.
15 days that is...
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Old June 20th, 2012, 05:34 AM   #60

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year 1941 will include all german annexation. hostile local population has been expelled from annexed areas. refer to "World War II related deportations, expulsions and similar displacements" World War II evacuation and expulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
no, the figures of Poles expelled from warthegau and other regions are inflated. instead of using the real figures, they give the planned ones. so from the warthegau from 630,000 planned it were according to Douglas 133,000 till the end of 1941.
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