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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #11

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I was being sarcastic.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #12

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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
They planned on capturing Americans stocks to fuel the tanks. But the under valued resistance put up by Americans, plus them blowing up their own stock to deny it to the Germans played a part in slowing the drive down immensely.
The Americans didn't need to blow up their fuel dumps. The Germans may have wanted them, but there have been stories that the Germans could FIND the American supply dumps, let alone raid them.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #13

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No chance at all. It was der Fuhrer's fault.... der große dumpkopf. (for all those little Hitler lovers out there taht don't speak German, kopf meaning head and dump meaning....)

To be more accurate, Hitler forced Model to keep going when they had no supply lines operational and no fuel to speak of anyway. A fitting end to the SS monsters who were ordered to shoot all POWs.

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The men of the Kampfgruppe were forced to abandon their vehicles and heavy equipment, although most of what remained of the unit was able to escape.
Murdering dogs running for their lives...
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #14

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if they had sherman tanks instead of those big stupid tanks they in fact had

been to the battle area for a visit, and it's all small lanes and steep hills and forests, there's a tiger 11 still on display where it got stuck in the battle.
They might have gotten farther as the Sherman was faster then the Tiger and King Tiger tanks, but the issues of fuel probably would have still been a problem. Also, remember that by comparison the Sherman was lightly armored. That meant that if the Germans used Shermans instead of Tigers and King Tigers, they could not advance with confidence that they would survive any encounter. The Sherman won WWII for America through numbers, not firepower or armor. The Germans simply didn't have enough tanks to destroy them all...

The tanks the Germans should have used were the latest Panzer IV variants and the Panther, not the Tiger and King Tiger. The two Tiger tanks were practically invulnerable, yes, BUT they were both slow and heavy. The King Tiger is the heaviest tank ever. It is heavier then the modern American (M1A1 Abrams) and German (Leopard 2) MBTs. The King Tiger damaged roads when it moved. The narrow roads of the Ardennes were a serious impediment to them and limited their mobility. It also made them targets for the Allied air forces when the weather cleared. The late Panzer IVs and the Panthers, however, were lighter, faster, more mobile, and to a great extent better protected from the weapons the Western Allies had. Most Shermans were armed with a short barreled (low volocity 75mm gun). The Panzer IVH and the Panther were both relatively immune to the Sherman. And both were equipped with a long barreled (high velocity 75/76mm gun).

That said, by December 1944 Germany was doomed anyway. The ultimate goal in the "Battle of the Bulge" was to take Antwerp, destroy parts of Bradly's Army Group and all of Monty's, force the British to negotiate an end to the war and force the Americans to retreat back into France to regroup, buying time for the Germans to try and save Berlin from the Soviets. The goals of Watch on the Rhine were far beyond the capacity of the German army and the manpower they had available. The German tanks in the attack ran out of fuel before they reached the Muese River, about halfway to Antwerp, and even if they'd made it to Antwerp, they didn't have the men to fully encircle and crush 1.5 Allied Army groups... shoot, they couldn't even destroy the 101st Airborne Division (and a handful of other scattered units) in Bastogne. Destroying Monty's army group and part of Bradly's was out of the question.

Most historians have stated that Germany's best chance in 1944 was to transfer those units east and let the Western Allies conquer Germany. In doing so, Stalin wouldn't get Berlin and Germany wouldn't be divided at the end of the war (as the Western Allies could then do what MacArthur did in Japan, deny the Soviets entry).
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #15

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Most historians have stated that Germany's best chance in 1944 was to transfer those units east and let the Western Allies conquer Germany. In doing so, Stalin wouldn't get Berlin and Germany wouldn't be divided at the end of the war (as the Western Allies could then do what MacArthur did in Japan, deny the Soviets entry).
Nice post but ahh! ...reason was not one of Hitler's strengths.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #16

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The Americans didn't need to blow up their fuel dumps. The Germans may have wanted them, but there have been stories that the Germans could FIND the American supply dumps, let alone raid them.
That's interesting. I've always read they knew where most of them were and planned their routes accordingly. If what you are saying is true then i may need to update my World War 2 history books?
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Old June 24th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #17

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The way I see it by this time Hitler had lost all touch with reality and was delusional. He also had commanders who kept claiming they could turn the tide giving Hitler new resolve to carry on the fight. The Battle of the Bulge was a last ditch attempt to divide the allies in the west and force an armistice. The plan completely failed because of a lack of fuel, whether he had used sherman's or T-34's it didn't matter. No fuel = no movement. Hoping to find fuel supplies along the way showed the complete incompetence of Hitler at this point to understand that the allies knew Hitler did not have fuel and could always stop any advance by delaying them and denying them their fuel supplies. Also complete air superiority meant that whatever tanks were put in the field didn't matter because they were sitting ducks whenever they had travel on open terrain under good weather conditions, making a speedy advance nigh impossible. Speed which was needed to be able to take fuel supplies.

Also the allies agreed the Soviet's were to take Berlin. At this point of the war Hitler had lost, carrying on the fight meant only unnecessary loss of life and destruction.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 11:22 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by amazedkat View Post
if they had sherman tanks instead of those big stupid tanks they in fact had

been to the battle area for a visit, and it's all small lanes and steep hills and forests, there's a tiger 11 still on display where it got stuck in the battle.
The Tigger II made up a small portion of the GERMAN forces during the battle. There was only 489 of them built. Its not like their enitire force was made up of them. There were only two such unit. s.Pz.Abt 506 and SS.s.Pz.Abt 501, a total of no more than 90 Tiger II.

The majority of GERMAN tanks were Pz IV's and Panther's. The Pz IV was the German equavalant of the Sherman. What they should have done sooner in the war is concentrate tank production on one model.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 11:28 PM   #19
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Hitler and the Nazi leaders couldn't agree to peace because they couldn't admit their grandiose plans with the Master Race and Thousand Year Reich and so on had failed. Plus the Allies weren't looking to negotiate and were planning on hanging them, so there was no reason to make peace.

The army coup in 1944 had failed. As long as the Nazi leadership was in place, there would be no negotiated peace. As long as the army was still following orders, they would keep fighting no matter how hopeless.

As far as tanks are concerned, the Germans build everything heavy, the US builds everything light, and the Japanese build everything even lighter. That's the way those countries build tanks. The Sherman tank was not better than German or Soviet tanks, but the US produced huge numbers of them.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 11:31 PM   #20

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I have visited the tank museum in Munster, Germany. That Tiger II sure was impressive, I had seen thousands of pictures and documentaries however never did it quite capture the majestic appearance of the Tiger II. So, perhaps Germany did have a better chance if they concentrated on the Panzer IV, however I'm glad they did not for selfish reasons :P

Also, the panzer IV was outclassed by the T-34 and equal to the American and British Shermans. So if they concentrated on one tank design it should have been the Panther or Panzer V. However this tank had many problems during its initial deployment.
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