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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by caldrail View Post
At Stalingrad they did. The Russians were becoming desperate at that point and without enough arms to go around, men were sent forward in large numbers on the principle that some would get through...
Would your source for that be the movie "Enemy at the Gates" ?

You know that's just a movie right?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by OccamsRazor View Post
You are right about the first flak jackets - what I meant were jackets that could be worn by troops moving on the ground, rather than the more sedentary aircrewmen.
I'm not sure I've seen foot soldiers in WWII wearing FLAK jackets.

I have seen pictures of British paratroops at Arnhem wearing experimental body armor that resembled Roman lorica-segamentata
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Old November 17th, 2012, 07:00 PM   #93

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Theres two sources of armour for the Paras.
The original RAF issue body armour was found to be too restrictive to fit in powered turrets and the cramped access of the Lancaster so it was donated to the USAAF and to the 21st Army group. That included the airborne forces on D-Day and later at Arnhem but that was heavy, bulky and not much practical use for an infantryman, maybe more useful for landing craft crew?

The other source is the MRC body armour system, the body protection commitee of the medical research council (hence MRC) came up with a lightweight armour to cover vital organs only and thereby save weight.

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It was on issue to the troops at Arnhem although priority went to glider pilots for obvious reasons, its supposed to be worn under the clothes so you wouldnt notice it but it was so uncomfortable that way it tended to get worn on the outside.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:25 AM   #94

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Would your source for that be the movie "Enemy at the Gates" ?

You know that's just a movie right?
Get a life. I never quote history from Hollywood. No, my sources are those you find in libraries and bookstores. Try it sometime, you can often find texts that are very educational.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:45 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Nemowork View Post
Theres two sources of armour for the Paras.
The original RAF issue body armour was found to be too restrictive to fit in powered turrets and the cramped access of the Lancaster so it was donated to the USAAF and to the 21st Army group. That included the airborne forces on D-Day and later at Arnhem but that was heavy, bulky and not much practical use for an infantryman, maybe more useful for landing craft crew?

The other source is the MRC body armour system, the body protection commitee of the medical research council (hence MRC) came up with a lightweight armour to cover vital organs only and thereby save weight.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

It was on issue to the troops at Arnhem although priority went to glider pilots for obvious reasons, its supposed to be worn under the clothes so you wouldnt notice it but it was so uncomfortable that way it tended to get worn on the outside.
Yes, those metal plates were the type I saw - a better idea would have been to make some form of jerkin that incorporated them so it could be removed easier - much like we have today.

I have never heard or seen RAF bomber crews wearing any form of body armor and from what I know of the Lancaster bomber, there was no possibility of crews wearing it as well as their flying suits.
Indeed it might cost you your life to wear armor as it would impede your ability to exit the aircraft in a hurry.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:46 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by caldrail View Post
Get a life. I never quote history from Hollywood. No, my sources are those you find in libraries and bookstores. Try it sometime, you can often find texts that are very educational.
OK, please provide your references that Red Army troops were sent into battle unarmed at the battle of Stalingrad or indeed at any battle in WWII.

And then tell me who's in need of a life

Last edited by Poly; November 18th, 2012 at 03:00 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:29 AM   #97

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I'm not aware that Russian troops were sent into combat without arms at all. It was at Stalingrad that that some unequipped troops were ordered to advance because there weren't enough arms to go around and that the situation was desperate. It was also assumed that they would indeed pick up the weapon of the nearest fallen soldier and carry on. What else could they do? I refer to a somewhat well known order issued at the time concerning a ban on retreating.

As for references....

  • Kershaw, Ian (2000). Hitler: 1936-1945: Nemesis. London: Penguin Books.
    International_Standard_Book_Number International_Standard_Book_Number
    978-0-14-027239-0.
  • MacDonald, John. (1986) Great Battles of World War II. London: Michael Joseph books.
  • Modern world history : patterns of interaction. Evanston, IL: McDougal Littell. 2006.
    International_Standard_Book_Number International_Standard_Book_Number
    0-618-55715-6.
  • Manstein, Erich von; Powell, Anthony G. (Ed. & Trans.); Liddell Hart, B. H. (Preface); Blumenson, Martin (Introduction) (2004). Lost Victories: The War Memoirs of Hitler's Most Brilliant General. St. Paul, MN: Zenith Press. ISBN 0-7603-2054-3.
  • Pennington, Reina "Women and the Battle of Stalingrad" pages 169–211 from Russia War, Peace and Diplomacy Essays in Honour of John Erickson edited by Ljubica and Mark Erickson, London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 2004, ISBN 0-297-84913-1.
  • Donald_Rayfield Donald_Rayfield
    .
    Stalin_and_His_Hangmen Stalin_and_His_Hangmen
    : The Tyrant and Those Who Killed for Him
    . New York: Random House, 2004 (hardcover, ISBN 0-375-50632-2); 2005 (paperback, ISBN 0-375-75771-6).
  • Shirer, William L. (1960 reprinted 1990). The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany New York: Simon & Schuster.
  • Taylor, A.J.P. and Mayer, S.L., eds. (1974) A History Of World War Two. London: Octopus Books. ISBN 0-7064-0399-1.
  • Taylor, A.J.P. (1998). The Second World War and its Aftermath. Folio Society (Vol 4 of 4).**
  • Weinberg Gerhard A World At Arms A Global History of World War II, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005, ISBN 978-0-521-55879-2.

Further reading
  • Antill, Peter (2007). Stalingrad 1942, Osprey Publishing, London. ISBN 1-84603-028-5
  • Biesinger, Joseph A. (2006). Germany: a reference guide from the Renaissance to the present.
    Infobase_Publishing Infobase_Publishing
    , New York City. ISBN 978-0-8160-4521-1
  • Corum, James S. (2008). Wolfram von Richthofen: Master of the German Air War. Lawrence, KS, University Press of Kansas. ISBN 978-0-7006-1598-8.
  • Dibold, Hans (2001) Doctor at Stalingrad. Littleton, CO: Aberdeen, (hardcover, ISBN 0-9713852-1-1).
  • Grossman, Vasiliĭ Semenovich; Beevor, Antony; Vinogradova, Luba (2007). A Writer at War:A Soviet Journalist with the Red Army, 1941 - 1945. New York: Vintage Books.
    International_Standard_Book_Number International_Standard_Book_Number
    978-0-307-27533-2.
  • Holl, Adelbert. (2005) An Infantryman In Stalingrad: From 24 September 1942 to 2 February 1943. Pymble, NSW, Australia: Leaping Horseman Books (hardcover, ISBN 0-9751076-1-5).
  • Hoyt, Edwin Palmer. (1999) 199 Days: The Battle for Stalingrad. New York: A Forge Book, (paperback, ISBN 0-312-86853-7).
  • Jones, Michael K. (2007) Stalingrad: How the Red Army Survived the German Onslaught. Drexel Hill, PA: Casemate, (hardcover, ISBN 978-1-932033-72-4)
  • Mayer, SL & Taylor, AJP (1974). History of World War II. London: Octopus Books. ISBN 0-7064-0399-1 & ISBN 978-0-7064-0399-2
  • Raus, Erhard. Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941–1945, compiled and translated by Steven H. Newton. Cambridge, MA: Da Capo Press, 2003 (hardcover, ISBN 0-306-81247-9); 2005 (paperback, ISBN 0-306-81409-9).
  • Roberts, Geoffrey. (2002) Victory at Stalingrad: The Battle that Changed History. New York: Longman, (paperback, ISBN 0-582-77185-4).
  • —— (2006) Stalin's wars: from World War to Cold War, 1939-1953. Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-11204-1
  • Samsonov A.M., (1989) Stalingrad Battle, 4th ed. re-edited and added-to, Moscow, Science publishing.
    Russian_language Russian_language
    : Самсонов А.М. Сталинградская битва, 4-е изд., испр. и доп.— М.: Наука, 1989. (in Russian)
  • Snyder, David R. (2005). Review in The Journal of Military History Volume 69 (1).
  • Zhukov, Georgiĭ Konstantinovich & Harrison E., Salisbury (1969). Marshal Zhukov's Greatest Battles. New York: Harper & Row.
    Online_Computer_Library_Center Online_Computer_Library_Center
    563797912

Yes, the list comes from Wikipedia, but please notice how confident I am that the relevant quotes are contained within. Now you have some homework to be getting on with.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:30 AM   #98

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(duplicate post)
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:39 AM   #99

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some countries adapted to camouflage unifiorms quicker than others, the French with their dreamy recollections of napoleonic greatness were one of the last to change. Even in 1914 it was a blue tunic and bright red trousers, (with white gloves) to face ones baptism of fire.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 04:11 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caldrail View Post
I'm not aware that Russian troops were sent into combat without arms at all. It was at Stalingrad that that some unequipped troops were ordered to advance because there weren't enough arms to go around and that the situation was desperate...

...the list comes from Wikipedia..
What's the Wiki page?

The overwhelming consensus is that opening scene of the movie is completely false.

Last edited by Poly; November 23rd, 2012 at 04:35 PM.
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