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Old November 14th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #91

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i think some of germany (nazis not Wehrmacht) knew but i think the italian black coats didn't nor japan
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #92
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ok but how is camp in Bereza connected with OP?
This is beorna attempt to derail this thread
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #93
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Training: Hitler Youth to the Wehrmacht

"Indoctrination began early on in Nazi Germany, primarily with the regimentation of young boys in Hitler Youth. Hitler Youth is typically associated with the indoctrination of more radical members of the Nazi Party, but Henry Metelmann’s autobiography serves as an excellent paradigm for those numerous amounts of members who were eventually conscripted into the Wehrmacht. These members were not taken solely by the radical ideological current, but rather more simplistic, practical appeals. Metelmann found himself considerably enticed by Hitler Youth after his Christian scout group was taken over by it, asserting that "I thought the uniform was smashing… Where before we seldom had a decent football to play with, the Hitler Youth now provided us with decent sports equipment, and previously out-of-bounds gymnasiums, swimming pools and even stadiums were now open to us." He continues, "Never in my life had I been on a real holiday… Now under Hitler, for very little money I could go to lovely camps in the mountains, by the rivers or near the sea."25 While promotion of change enabled Hitler to garner support from the elder population as he attempted to consolidate his power in 1933, the crux of his ideological exertions would shift to the younger population; and as Metelmann demonstrates, Hitler achieved this by opening up a wealth of avenues to young German boys who had hitherto lived in a dispiriting Germany hampered by economic destitution. Moreover, Hitler Youth members were taught about the necessity of Lebensraum in the East, and the glory of fighting and dying for Fatherland. Metelmann recalls a strong sense of importance when the police stopped traffic as he and fellow Hitler Youth members marched down streets. These marches, unbeknownst to Metelmann at the time, would run through working class quarters to display Hitler’s authority to a crucial population."

"Beginning with the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, Germany embarked on what would become arguably the most murderous, indiscriminate campaign in modern military history. Traditional historiography of German war efforts in World War II paints an image of unmitigated cruelty by such paramilitary forces as the Einsatzgruppen, the Waffen SS, the German Order Police, and radical auxiliary police units from the occupied territories. Indeed, the 1990 edition of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust contains an entry on the Wehrmacht which makes no mention of crimes committed by the Wehrmacht, but instead complicit only through cognizance.1 However an emerging historiography has taken flight, especially after 1995 when an exhibition entitled "Vernichtungskrieg: Verbrechen der Wehrmacht, 1941-1944" began touring Germany and Austria. Translated to "War of Annihilation: Crimes of the Wehrmacht," the exhibit portrays essays accompanied by scores of photos that expose the Wehrmacht as yet another weapon of violent persecution in Hitler’s arsenal. While this emerging historiography had circulated among scholars for several years prior, its unbridled challenge of existing public thought proved to be quite controversial. Its authors, the Hamburg Institute for Social Research, brought into light a subject that had heretofore been considered settled, debunking the myth that the German Wehrmacht was an independent military apparatus who fought valiantly while maintaining its distance from Holocaust-related crimes. Why it took such a candid exposť as long as it did to be revealed to the public is reserved for further studies; however it can be surmised that prior to Germany's unification in 1990, such discretion was necessary. Politically speaking, the consequences of publishing a historical account of the Wehrmacht's complicity in the Final Solution by German historians could be devastating, especially given that many of the German Democratic Republic's founders were former members of the Wehrmacht – a potential coup de grace in a tense Cold War"

"A fundamental question that necessitates explanation in this essay is why seemingly ordinary Germans were compelled to either engage in or passively comply with genocidal acts. Many prominent historians have grappled with this query, including Christopher Browning, Omer Bartov, Daniel Goldhagen, Ulrich Herbert, and Hannes Heer, to name a few. However the overarching theme that permeates their studies is a general understanding that no such universal or definitive explanation exists. Delving into the minds of soldiers to explain how Nazi ideology became almost imbued in the cultural fabric of the average German is a seemingly impossible task, especially given that many of those living soldiers have since suppressed any semblance of cognizance or complicity, lest they shame their hitherto valiant efforts on the Eastern front. Thus, historians are forced to rely on more pragmatic historical and often times philosophical explanations. The former explanations are somewhat more reliable given their empirical foundations; however they do carry over into the philosophical realm as officers and soldiers would ultimately justify genocidal actions utilizing philosophical principles of duty. Before exploring these, however, it is important that I provide a disclaimer: justifications for committing war crimes are to be presented at face value; that is, I am not seeking to provide a case for their validity, but only wish to offer some of the arguments that have been presented post hoc (both by historians and the participants alike). It is thus up to the individual reader to discern for themselves whether these arguments hold."

"The Wehrmacht’s treatment of unarmed civilian Poles ranged anywhere from plundering, to rapes, to outright murder. A report dated just 16 days after the invasion highlights an incident in which a Polish girl just 16 years old was forcibly raped by two soldiers in her parents’ bedroom.In another case, three soldiers broke into a house late at night and pistol-whipped members of the family in their beds. They then proceeded to rape the 20-year-old daughter at gunpoint in front of her family, eventually leaving with several of their material possessions.In the latter case, the soldiers were reported as having been arrested by field officers, but the unruliness of Wehrmacht soldiers in instances of rape was rampant in field reports."

Link; Wehrmacht Complicity

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Old November 14th, 2012, 10:42 PM   #94

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Reimbold: "In the first officers' prison camp where I was being kept here, there was a really stupid guy from Frankfurt , a young lieutenant, a young upstart. There were eight of us sitting around a table and talking about Russia . And he said: 'Oh, we caught this female spy who had been running around in the neighborhood. First we hit her in the tits with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet. Then we ****ed her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her. Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.' And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I got up and said: Gentlemen, this is too much."
there was 8+1 officers listening and only one reacted humanly. So you could say that 11.1% did not accept this behaviour and acted humanly.
The story is a sad and disgusting story. the question is just, is the story true the ltn. told and as well, is the story that Reimbold told true as well. You can't even be sure that he did not laugh. If he would have told, that till may 1945 he had never heard and seen a war crime, you would call him a liar. But cos he says, what you like to hear it is the absolutely truth.

Of course you missed, because you havn't read the book, that Reimbold was astonished, when he heard about the murder of Jews by CO at the back on vans. Of course you don't mention that the book contains as well cases, were soldiers were disgusted about the behaviour of other soldiers and the SS. You are the best example, that sciolism is dangerous, allthough I doubt, that knowledge would made your postings better.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:37 PM   #95
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The story is a sad and disgusting story. the question is just, is the story true the ltn. told and as well, is the story that Reimbold told true as well. You can't even be sure that he did not laugh. If he would have told, that till may 1945 he had never heard and seen a war crime, you would call him a liar. But cos he says, what you like to hear it is the absolutely truth.

Of course you missed, because you havn't read the book, that Reimbold was astonished, when he heard about the murder of Jews by CO at the back on vans. Of course you don't mention that the book contains as well cases, were soldiers were disgusted about the behaviour of other soldiers and the SS. You are the best example, that sciolism is dangerous, allthough I doubt, that knowledge would made your postings better.
My posting? Look at the victims of WWII. 40 millions of dead in Europe. Only about half of that were military causalities. Look at the table at;
World_War_II_casualties World_War_II_casualties
Analyse this figures. You still want to tell us that average German did not know about this? Do not be ridiculous. Every adult German knew exactly what was going on. Almost every German soldier knew what for they were fighting for and they have done it willingly.
Look at Police Reserve Battalion 101 story. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/battalion101.html
They have been all conscripts, average Germans. They have the option to take part in mass executions or be assigned to different duty. Only few of about 500 chose to be excused, the rest willingly shoot thousand of victims.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #96

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My posting? Look at the victims of WWII. 40 millions of dead in Europe. Only about half of that were military causalities. Look at the table at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Analyse this figures. You still want to tell us that average German did not know about this? Do not be ridiculous. Every adult German knew exactly what was going on. Almost every German soldier knew what for they were fighting for and they have done it willingly.
Look at Police Reserve Battalion 101 story. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/battalion101.html
They have been all conscripts, average Germans. They have the option to take part in mass executions or be assigned to different duty. Only few of about 500 chose to be excused, the rest willingly shoot thousand of victims.
Please remember mosquito's posting
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My grandfather was a Pole who was conscripted to Wehrmacht. I talked with him once about holocaust and he told me that knowledge about it wasnt common between regular German soldiers. As long as he stationed in Norway he didnt hear anything about it. Later when he was transfered to artillery unit on the eastern front he also didnt know about it. He has told me that in general German soldiers belived that Jews will be moved to the east or somewhere else but no one really had any informations about gas chambers and mass killings. They knew about bad treatment of Jews or Soviet PoWs. But there is a difference between so called "bad treatment" and "mass killings".
So a Pole, forced to join the Wehrmacht, didn't know and as it seems the german soldiers around him didn't know as well, but you now that all knew?


You want to know whether Germans knew about the 40 million losses in Europe? Soviets and Poles are even today not completely sure how many died, but the average german soldier, who fought since 1943 to survive did know about it? And BTW, war deads are not immediately Nazi crimes.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #97

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Stop.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #98

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Edward,

Once again you are derailing a thread by means of personally attacking beorna. Your continued accusations that he is trolling this thread are actually the only trolling posts here. Additionally, you are being flat out rude. Take this as a final warning: stop attacking other members - irrespective of how much you clearly disagree with them - and stick to topics relevant to the thread.

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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #99

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Thread re-opened, but under close scrutiny.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #100

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So much vitriolic posting re this thread . Excesses on the part of the German forces are well known and documented , in particular the bloody " competition between the einsatzgruppen regarding kill tallies . However , though a considerable number of SS and Heer troops were involved , i find such pathetic generalisations as "up to their necks in it ",to be an affront to the far greater numbers of both institutions who had no part in said atrocities . I have often asked myself "what would i have done " had i witnessed these dreadful actions myself . The honest answer for me is that i really don't know . One thing i do know for sure though , is that transfer to some unit like the Dirlewanger or Kaminski brigades (the fate of many a dissenter ) would most likely have made me keep my mouth shut . Sure , plenty of them knew , but i ask myself ,what could they effectively do . In the military , any military of that era , orders are orders , cold ,hard ,fact , and you disobey them at your peril . That is of course unless you fancy the firing squad , gallows, guillotine , or piano wire etc, etc , or didn't that happen . Thank God that i have never had to make the choice .
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