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Old November 7th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #21

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A misconception of the Holocaust is that all of the Jews were killed in the camps, and that it was a secret kept from both the German homefront and the average German soldier. In fact about 2.2 million civilians were killed in the field by the Einsatzgruppen, about 1,000,000 of them Jews. Those killings were in the open and not all hidden from public sight. The Einsatzgruppen were not a secret, and the average German soldier in Eastern Europe if he had not witnessed a massacre himself, had at least heard of them. The regular Germany Army frequently assisted the Einsatzgruppen in these massacres, as did local civilians, and rumors of them were common even among the civilian populace on the home front.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Scaeva View Post
A misconception of the Holocaust is that all of the Jews were killed in the camps, and that it was a secret kept from both the German homefront and the average German soldier. In fact about 2.2 million civilians were killed in the field by the Einsatzgruppen, about 1,000,000 of them Jews. Those killings were in the open and not all hidden from public sight. The Einsatzgruppen were not a secret, and the average German soldier in Eastern Europe if he had not witnessed a massacre himself, had at least heard of them. The regular Germany Army frequently assisted the Einsatzgruppen in these massacres, as did local civilians, and rumors of them were common even among the civilian populace on the home front.
behind the eastern front mass murders/deportations ( against civilian population/pows) and other war crimes were common events by both sides, it became a daily routine for soldiers.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #23

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evrey soldier had their own individual experences and may or may not have seen first hand the actions of the SD behind the lines. for most soldiers their thoughts dident stray much past what their own situation was on the frontline where they were fighting for their lives evrey day. any german memror of the war shows this and while i don't doubt that some will underexagerate how much they knew i can far better understand that most soldiers just dident spare much though to the wider implications of the war, those in rear areas maybe but those on the frontlines would have had little time for thinking of anything else other then how they were going to survive the next day.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:48 AM   #24

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90% of the armed forces, including nearly all officers, did not know about the holocaust. Even Speer managed to trick the judges in the Nuremberg trials that he didn't know anything about the holocaust.
Shame on you.
You just made up that so-called fact, there is not the slightest historical evidence to justify it.
As Scaeva has posted, the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were well known on the Eastern front, the SS involved didn't even try to keep it a secret, they were proud of what they did.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:13 AM   #25

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Shame on you.
You just made up that so-called fact, there is not the slightest historical evidence to justify it.
As Scaeva has posted, the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were well known on the Eastern front, the SS involved didn't even try to keep it a secret, they were proud of what they did.
Nobody knows how known they were. Probably more people knew about it, than they later claimed. But tha's all we can say. And there were first of all lots of rumours and hostile propaganda. British protocolls of german POW talks report e.g. the use of gas trains to exterminated jews in 1941. Such trains did not exist. So even one had heard about the killings, it is not sure whether he believed it or not.
Some may be proud. What you perhaps mix is, that those people were some kind of proud to accomplished their jobs as ordered. That is something different. This reminds me to a letter of a soldier to his mother. he enlarged his voluntary service, "because he had to do his job and was need as exact leader of his unit. They killed 1500 men in just three weeks and the job is still not finished". This BTW, is from a letter of an GI in Vietnam to his mother!
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Old November 8th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #26

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Nobody knows how known they were. Probably more people knew about it, than they later claimed. But tha's all we can say. And there were first of all lots of rumours and hostile propaganda. British protocolls of german POW talks report e.g. the use of gas trains to exterminated jews in 1941. Such trains did not exist. So even one had heard about the killings, it is not sure whether he believed it or not.
Some may be proud. What you perhaps mix is, that those people were some kind of proud to accomplished their jobs as ordered. That is something different. This reminds me to a letter of a soldier to his mother. he enlarged his voluntary service, "because he had to do his job and was need as exact leader of his unit. They killed 1500 men in just three weeks and the job is still not finished". This BTW, is from a letter of an GI in Vietnam to his mother!
It's actually fairly known that most people knew exactly what was going on (except maybe German soldiers stationed on the Western Front). In the East, mass killings and rape were commonplace and in full view (how else did so many Nazi sympathizers figure out how to join the Einsatzgruppen?)

And in Germany itself, not only was the killing in full view, but so was the massive amount of slave labor. Most concentration camps were not located far from cities, which meant that their prisoners were usually being used to work in German cities. Even more astounding are the numbers of sub-camps located directly within German cities. These were mini-concentration camps within full view of the civilian population. The Nazis made little effort to hide their crimes. For instance, beside Theresienstadt, I can't think of one major camp with walls blocking the view inside. Hence why many German witnesses who lived by camps recount walking up to them and just curiously looking in at prisoners being tortured and killed. Germans who didn't know about the camp system are either liars, deniers, or just incredibly naive.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #27

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
It's actually fairly known that most people knew exactly what was going on (except maybe German soldiers stationed on the Western Front). In the East, mass killings and rape were commonplace and in full view (how else did so many Nazi sympathizers figure out how to join the Einsatzgruppen?)
that's not the impression i have gotten anyway from the memoirs i have read of german soldiers serving in russia. as i said earlier those in rear areas mayu have known more yet those at the front would have had a lesser idea of what was going on. the brutality of the war was plane for them to see in how it was fought by both sides. what evidence do you have to say that most knew or that mass rape and slaughter was being conducted by all troops as it just wasn't.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #28

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Germans who didn't know about the camp system are either liars, deniers, or just incredibly naive.
If you only saw one camp would you automatically assume there was a whole system of them? Most adults almost certainly were aware of a general organizing to kill Jews but there's no way in hell anyone could have known the scale of the Final Solution from inferences. Yes, generally speaking German soldiers and German citizens knew that the government was killing or at least imprisoning Jews. Did they know they were systematically killing ALL the Jews? Highly unlikely.

For German soldier's at the front the Final Solution was probably quite far from their minds.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #29

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
It's actually fairly known that most people knew exactly what was going on (except maybe German soldiers stationed on the Western Front).
How do you know this?

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
In the East, mass killings and rape were commonplace and in full view (how else did so many Nazi sympathizers figure out how to join the Einsatzgruppen?)
From the nearly 3 million soldiers in the east, only up to 200,000 were in the KorŁck. here the most mass killings happened. I don't want to say, that nobody knew something, but we can't say who knew. There were lots of rumors, even in the west.
For the statement of mass rapes I would like to see sources. Nobody knows how many were raped. Instead of this we know, that the Wehrmacht persecuted rape cases. I am convinced, that the few thousands who were sentenced are not all, but nobody can say how many were rapists.

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And in Germany itself, not only was the killing in full view, but so was the massive amount of slave labor. Most concentration camps were not located far from cities, which meant that their prisoners were usually being used to work in German cities. Even more astounding are the numbers of sub-camps located directly within German cities. These were mini-concentration camps within full view of the civilian population. The Nazis made little effort to hide their crimes. For instance, beside Theresienstadt, I can't think of one major camp with walls blocking the view inside. Hence why many German witnesses who lived by camps recount walking up to them and just curiously looking in at prisoners being tortured and killed.
The termination camps weren't in germany and they were widely shrouded. It was not wise to come too close to them. Those who worked as slave labourers, as you called it, were very different. Especially Russians were treated bad. I know it from my town were such camps existed. The responsibles were often scumbags and well known. I know about at least one rape. But there were as well several, who gave bread to the Russians, allthough it was forbidden. Those scumbags were not only dangerous for the Russians, they as well were a threat for the germans in my village. But there were as well French workers who could move without restrictions. So there was no coherent impression.
Germans in greater numbers became aware of the crimes since 1943. Some did know about it even since summer 1941. How many knew is unknown, the sources contradictory.


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Germans who didn't know about the camp system are either liars, deniers, or just incredibly naive.
Tough words. I agree, that more knew about it, than declared to know nothing. The reasons are different. Some could know, but did not want, others knew, but did not want to believe it or could not believe it, others knew it, but are ashamed, that they didn't do something. That's a typical human behaviour.
We spoke here on historum about allied war crimes. I gave some reports about allied behaviour towards japanese and calculated how much prisoners should have been held by the allies and how much were and that that the army offered ice-cream for the GIs to make prisoners and not to take trophies. I mentioned how many german soldiers and civilians were murdered by allied soldiers in my area. The reactions weren't too friendly and this 65 years after the end of the war. So to denie things you don't want to accept is typically human and not restricted to nazis or germans.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:16 PM   #30

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Before you complain about how the Germans did not do anything about the Jews, you should consider whether you would do anything. Openly rebelling against the Nazi party is not exactly what one would call self-preservation.
I'm sure if the nazi party had arisen in Britain and not in Germany, the situation would be the same.
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