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Old November 8th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Yes,I'm. There was no single person in Austrian village where my Father worked as a slave labourer (by the way he was treated well in Austria) which did not know abaut it. The only question for discussion is when they learned about extermination. About prossecutions, deportation to ghettos they knew from the begining.

Click the image to open in full size.




Click the image to open in full size.
Jews forced to scrub the street of Vienna after the Anschluss (annexation) of Austria, March 1938
I tried a several times to speak about the expelled germans after WWII and as well about discrimination and murder of ethnic germans before and in the beginning of WWII. I spoke as well about parts of the Polish-German history. About the first two subjects you never liked to speak, you tried to palliate, you denied facts, and about the history you still repeat old post-war propaganda. I even remember to our discussion about Bereza kartuska, where I accused the Polish government of being anti-semitic, too and you declared the jews there only were imprisoned for tax crimes. Yes, like Jews in germany in 1938! But of course everybody should know the true reason! You live in a multimedia world, you can get nearly every information you like and even in minutes. But nevertheless you repeat old stereotypes and propaganda. The germans of the nazi era had mainly only one media, the Nazi media. How can you allow yourself to blame those Germans for it, if you aren't willing to inform yourself?

Germans knew about the discrimination of Jews, but they weren't the only country with anti-semitism or dicrimination of minorities.And they saw as well, that the other countries paid court to Hitler. The Olymic games were in 1936, the race laws of nuremberg were in 1935. How many nations from foreign countries passed the Führer, raising their arms for the "Hitlergruß"? Germans knew about the imprisoning and deportations of jews after 1938, during the "Reichspogrom/Reichskristallnacht" many germans were disgusted, there are a lot Gestapo reports, unfortunately the germans were silent. But it is not easy to oppose in a dictatorship, especially if it is so reckless.
The major crimes, the mass exterminations started during the war in the second half of 1941 and they happened far away from the reich. It lasted some time before the first informations came home. But many people thought it were hostile rumours or invented and even those who thought these reports could be true were hoping they were not. And for those it was easier to ignore the rumours. There are diaries of 1942 which state that Germans in the Reich knew about the exterminations, but there is as well evidence in other diaries, that people couldn't imagine it was true. As it seems did allied countries as well not believe reports by jews. So germans were not the only ones here.
Nobody can say what germans knew in 1944 or 1945. we may suppose, that more and more got knowledge, but that is all we can say.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 11:22 PM   #42
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I read the memories of some German veterans. Most of them say that they witnessed several cases but didn't know the real level of military crimes.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #43

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My grandfather was a Pole who was conscripted to Wehrmacht. I talked with him once about holocaust and he told me that knowledge about it wasnt common between regular German soldiers. As long as he stationed in Norway he didnt hear anything about it. Later when he was transfered to artillery unit on the eastern front he also didnt know about it. He has told me that in general German soldiers belived that Jews will be moved to the east or somewhere else but no one really had any informations about gas chambers and mass killings. They knew about bad treatment of Jews or Soviet PoWs. But there is a difference between so called "bad treatment" and "mass killings".
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #44

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@ Beorna

Here's some pictures, hopefully they'll help you understand how public Nazi crimes were.

Click the image to open in full size.
German soldiers watch Lithuanians killing Jews. (http://www.holocaustresearchproject....20Massacre.jpg)

Click the image to open in full size.
German soldiers rounding up Polish civilians for slave labor in a city street. (
Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II
)

Click the image to open in full size.
Jewish slave laborers working in a town. (Zamosc www.HolocaustResearchProject.org)

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Map of where camps were located. Note how many there were inside of Germany. (*)

Though not all camps were in urban areas, many were. Theresienstadt was in the Sudeten town of Theresienstadt. Majdanek was an actual extermination camp located in the suburbs of Lublin.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 09:11 AM   #45
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just like every other army


most soldiers are the same in every country....some might be 'brain-washed' more than others
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
@ Beorna

Here's some pictures, hopefully they'll help you understand how public Nazi crimes were.
which of these pictures couldn't have been taken by a russian photographer in the Sovietunion?

you see nothing extreme in these pictures....that was the eastern front.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:12 PM   #47

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
@ Beorna

Here's some pictures, hopefully they'll help you understand how public Nazi crimes were.
Nobody says german soldiers knew nothing. But to recognize something as crime it must be outside your frame of reference. From the very first day found german soldiers mutilated dead comrades, killed civilian prisoners by the Soviets, the lethal rate of german POWs in Soviet captivity in 1941 and 1942 was between 90 and 95%. Mofli wrote it, the east was different. Nevertheless wer many crimes committed behind the front.

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
Map of where camps were located. Note how many there were inside of Germany. (*)

Though not all camps were in urban areas, many were. Theresienstadt was in the Sudeten town of Theresienstadt. Majdanek was an actual extermination camp located in the suburbs of Lublin.
Lublin is hardly Germany.
In my Samtgemeinde,
Samtgemeinde Samtgemeinde
, with 4.500 inhabitants during WWII in 5 villages were 11 camps, a russian camp with 100 Soviet POWs, 1 women camp with 60-80 Ukrainians,
1 camp with 40-50 french POW, 1 camp for 30-40 polish female civil workers, another camp for 30 Russians and some russian women, one demene camp with 18 Italians and 8 Russians, 1 camp with 10 Serbs, 1 camp with 15 Poles and Ukrainians, in my village 1 camp with 30-60 mainly Ukrainian women, 1 camp for 15-40 Serbs and Belgians and 1 camp with 30 soviet POWs.
So of course the camp system was known and it was known, that the treatment was not allways good. But these treatment was as well very different. Without the Soviet POWs, the most could move freely after their work and allthough it was forbidden, several forced labourers on farms had their meals together with the farmer's family. On the other side was the provisioning of others very bad, especially for the Russians. They were as well sometimes badly treaten. Such treatment was mainly linked with special brutal persons. So were there several workers at a farmer treated badly, but he treated his german farm servants as well not much better. in the factories germans and foreign workers were mainly seperated, so that there was no exchange usually. Contacts were often punished harshly. One german had sexual contact with an Ukrainian. The german was send to a KZ and survived luckily. With very great luck even his Ukrainian girl survived, even pregnant, with the help of a local Gestapo officer and his wife. I don't know if she is still alive, but she lived in a neighbour town, together with her later german husband and had three children. As i wrote before, there was one rape and one murder knwn during this time and an additional small number of deads. But here mainly the perpetrators were blamed by their germans fellows, not the system. So what should the people here know about the death camps in the east?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #48
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Beorma--the Soviets did not subject German Pows to the inhuman freezing experiments that S.S.. Dr Rasch did to Soviet soldiers in Dachau'or use German pows to test gas chambers as the Nazis used Soviet POWS at Auschwitz.So the view that the Soviets treated their German POWS worse than the Nazis is unhistorical baloney.
German officer Hans Von Luck in his book ''Panzer Leader' tells of how in his German POW camp in Russia they had a jazz band-in contrast Soviet Pows were reduced to cannibalism in some Nazi camps.
Also, given that the German Nazis criminally attacked the Soviet Union without warning and caused the deaths of at least 20 million Soviet citizens you and every other German should count yourselves bloody lucky that the Soviets allowed the rest of their German Pows to return to Germany in 1955.
What- given that Germany between 1941 fought a war of savage extermination and enslavement against the Soviet peoples did you expect them to do when the criminals responsible for this fell into their hands?-give them fresh lederhosen and a glass of schnapps?-get real!.
Equally the view that Wehrmacht soldiers in WW2 were just the same as other soldiers is drivel of the most stupid kind-I repeat the Wehrmacht were up to their necks in Nazi war crimes including the Holocaust from day one.
That's incontrovertible historical fact-not opinion- and no amount of grandfatherly anecdotes can alter that fact.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:02 AM   #49

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Beorma--the Soviets did not subject German Pows to the inhuman freezing experiments that S.S.. Dr Rasch did to Soviet soldiers in Dachau'or use German pows to test gas chambers as the Nazis used Soviet POWS at Auschwitz.So the view that the Soviets treated their German POWS worse than the Nazis is unhistorical baloney.
Nobody wrote the Soviets treated their prisoners worse than the Germans their soviet POWs. Nevertheless is a lethal rate of 90-95% for German soldiers in 1941/1942 in Soviet POW. Later these rate declined to 60-70% for those in 1943 and all in all ca. 1,000,000 million Germans died in soviet captivity. That's three time the UK losses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
German officer Hans Von Luck in his book ''Panzer Leader' tells of how in his German POW camp in Russia they had a jazz band-in contrast Soviet Pows were reduced to cannibalism in some Nazi camps.
Click the image to open in full size.

If an orchestra is evidence for a good camp, Auschwitz was a paradise, following your logic. They had several orchestras. Well, I wouldn't subscibed such statement.
BTW, von Luck went into captivity in april 1945. The lethal rate wasn't that high as before and of course was von Luck a colonel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
Also, given that the German Nazis criminally attacked the Soviet Union without warning and caused the deaths of at least 20 million Soviet citizens you and every other German should count yourselves bloody lucky that the Soviets allowed the rest of their German Pows to return to Germany in 1955.
Allthough you are correct, that German attacked the SU without warning, we should keep in mind, that we hadn't had a peaceful SU. The SU had before attacked Finland, occupied the baltic states, had "without" warning occupied eastern Poland, had occupied Bessarabia and during the western campaign the number of soviet forces at the german-soviet border increased massively. But as usual is your view on the soviet union quite white-washed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
What- given that Germany between 1941 fought a war of savage extermination and enslavement against the Soviet peoples did you expect them to do when the criminals responsible for this fell into their hands?-give them fresh lederhosen and a glass of schnapps?-get real!.
The mentioned soviet behaviour started on june 22nd. So it's hard to relate it with German extermination politics. Both regimes in the east were criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
Equally the view that Wehrmacht soldiers in WW2 were just the same as other soldiers is drivel of the most stupid kind-I repeat the Wehrmacht were up to their necks in Nazi war crimes including the Holocaust from day one.
The Anguish Of Surrender: Japanese POWs of World War II - Ulrich Straus - Google Books

The Anguish Of Surrender: Japanese POWs of World War II - Ulrich Straus - Google Books

The Wehrmacht? What is "The Wehrmacht"? The generals, the OKW, officrs, some soldiers, all soldiers? The Wehrmacht as organisation participated in nazi crimes, committed war crimes. But soldiers of western nations committed a lot of war crimes, too, without having a criminal regime. Does this make them worse or better? Or is it simply the war, who brings up the worst in too many soldiers?

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Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
That's incontrovertible historical fact-not opinion- and no amount of grandfatherly anecdotes can alter that fact.
Where do you see such grand-fatherly anecdotes?
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Old November 10th, 2012, 03:01 AM   #50
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Before you complain about how the Germans did not do anything about the Jews, you should consider whether you would do anything. Openly rebelling against the Nazi party is not exactly what one would call self-preservation.
I'm sure if the nazi party had arisen in Britain and not in Germany, the situation would be the same.
I think the question that no one has asked probably because they would feel uncomfortable doing so.

Why "would" the Germans do anything ? I think in todays Modern perspective we forget about the underlying Ethnic Hatreds that existed in the past. Even during WWII there were mini Genocides happening that didnt involve the Germans.
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