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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #61
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Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-179-1575-08, Ioannina, Deportation von Juden.jpg

“A woman weeps during the deportation of Jews from Ioannina on March 25, 1944. The deportation was enforced by the German army. Almost all of the people deported were murdered on or shortly after April 11, 1944, when the train carrying them reached Auschwitz-Birkenau.”




http://www.dw.de/uncovered-files-shed-light-on-hitlers-wehrmacht/a-16309930

“For a long time the assumption of a "clean Wehrmacht" held weight. In Germany, this myth was put to rest as late as 1995 with an exhibition on the topic. Did you also look into this myth?

The transcripts from Fort Hunt confirm a lot of what we already knew from existing research into the Wehrmacht concerning war crimes. But they are not suitable for quantifying the acts or the extent of the crimes. They just show how the soldiers talked about them. The value of the documents lies above all in their depiction of how soldiers viewed war crimes, how they thought about them. There we can add new facets to existing research and show how arbitrarily these soldiers experience violence and what they thought about it.
An especially interesting aspect is the perspective of Wehrmacht soldiers on the Holocaust. There it is confirmed that the majority of soldiers knew very well and had heard rumors - in principle, everyone could have known about it who wanted to know. But it also shows that the Holocaust was not popular within the army. However the war crimes are not the issue that we can read in relation to this. The transcripts illustrate a broad range of life in the Wehrmacht and make possible such a detailed picture of the mentality of this army.

Did you actually find a significant proportion of voices expressing dissent and critique, which the soldiers themselves participated?
Yes, there are a significant number of those voices. These views are particularly numerous in relation to the Holocaust. Many soldiers, discussing the genocide of the Jewish people, express criticism and reject it. It is actually often soldiers who were not perpetrators themselves, but who had just heard about it. But those who were directly involved tend to take a different view. With them there is more the need to justify their actions after the fact, and to maintain a positive self-image. This type of reaction is part of the automatism of violence.

Time and time again after the war, former members of the Wehrmacht plead that they were only obeying orders. Is that an argument that you found in the transcripts?
No, that only appears very rarely in our sources. Other things were much more important to the soldiers: their social circle, the group, their comrades, their leaders. They wanted to prove themselves to these people. The military value system plays its part, the militant ethos of the Wehrmacht. The soldiers wanted to be good soldiers, do a good job, win medals, fulfill their duties. They are motives that one regularly hears, that have nothing to do with simply obeying orders but with their understanding of their role as Wehrmacht soldiers. But the identification with these military values was very individual, that is one of the central themes of my study.”

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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #62

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It is nice to put blame on samebody else, isnít it Beorna? It help to dilute German crime, at list in your eys.

Comparing Polish antisemitism with German Antisemitism -what a nonsense. Could you answer two question only:Yes, there was an antisemitism in Poland as it was in all European countries. But you sholud have enough decency to restrain yourself in comparising it with German instituonalised extermination and wholesale killing.
First of all you'll never understand it, as it seems. I am not sure whether you don't want or are not able to.
I mention historical facts. There was anti-semitism in Poland, one has to be blind or ignorant not to see this. I did never say, that the Polish anti-semitism was comparable with those of the Nazis. So don't put words in my mouth I didn't say.

To your questions. First, the Jews lived there, because they were granted special rights by the Polish-Lithuanian kings, while they were restricted to discriminating laws in the west. That doesn't mean, that there was no Anti-semitism. Already under Bahory who was not anti-jewish, antisemitism rose. second, I forgot the name of the Pole. I mentioned it in threads before. He wrote something like, if there would be a tree for every Pole who helped a jew, there would be a forest. If there would be a tree for every Pole who denunciated or killed a Jew, there would be a forest too. There were 3 million jews in Poland and 6000 righteous Poles, just compare it with the netherlands.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #63
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To say that 90% of Germany's armed forces were
Unaware of what was happening, is plainly ridiculous .
Perhaps you could make the case for some unawareness in the
Early days of Nazism, but certainly as the war progressed, I think it would
Be fairer to say that 90% knew something, maybe not the full extent but
I find it difficult to accept that the movement and murder if millions
Of people was kept a secret among an elite few
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #64

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To say that 90% of Germany's armed forces were
Unaware of what was happening, is plainly ridiculous .
Perhaps you could make the case for some unawareness in the
Early days of Nazism, but certainly as the war progressed, I think it would
Be fairer to say that 90% knew something, maybe not the full extent but
I find it difficult to accept that the movement and murder if millions
Of people was kept a secret among an elite few
There is of course an process of recognizing the crimes. It is really hard to say how many knew and what they knew. I would neither use 90 nor 10%. There is a discussion in germany about how many soldiers participated in war crimes. Heer gives figures up to 80%, RD MŁller a number less than 5%. Hartmann wrote, that both figures are unprovable and just stay for a lot of participation and a few. nevertheless he thinks, that a figure under 5% is much more probable. But that includes all kinds of war crimes. and in the east there was a brutal war, on both sides. So even if soldiers committed war crimes, it is difficult to say whether the associated it with the nazi crimes. That's why I threw a light on the Pacific theatre. Killing surrendering "Japses" was not a real crime for many GIs, but some kind of "self-defense".
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:02 AM   #65

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just compare it with the netherlands.
and dont forget to compare the punishment for sheltering Jew in Poland and Netherlands
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:50 AM   #66

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and dont forget to compare the punishment for sheltering Jew in Poland and Netherlands
Runderlass RSHA: Germans who have friendly contacts with Jews in public get sentenced with Schutzhaft of three month.
Everybody who supported jews was threatened to get imprisoned in a KZ. This is the same with germans who had friendly contact or even sexual contacs with forced labourers. I spoke about it. A german from a neighbour town was imprisoned for having contacts to a Ukrainian girl. he was sentenced to KZ. he survived and told later, that he was asked if he had his box chosen. He asked, "which box". "The box in which you will leave the camp". Germans weren't automatically threatened by death if they helped jews, but nobody could be sure, tht this wouldn't happened. I have already written it sometimes. my great uncle was taken by the gestapo and never came back. he had helped jews to cross the border.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:38 AM   #67

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Quote:
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Runderlass RSHA: Germans who have friendly contacts with Jews in public get sentenced with Schutzhaft of three month.
Everybody who supported jews was threatened to get imprisoned in a KZ. This is the same with germans who had friendly contact or even sexual contacs with forced labourers. I spoke about it. A german from a neighbour town was imprisoned for having contacts to a Ukrainian girl. he was sentenced to KZ. he survived and told later, that he was asked if he had his box chosen. He asked, "which box". "The box in which you will leave the camp". Germans weren't automatically threatened by death if they helped jews, but nobody could be sure, tht this wouldn't happened. I have already written it sometimes. my great uncle was taken by the gestapo and never came back. he had helped jews to cross the border.

In Poland Germans were killing the Pole who sheltered Jew together with his familly or even all the people living in the house, doesnt matter if they knew about sheltered Jews or not. There were also cases when whole Polish famillies (including little babies) together with Jews they sheltered, were being burnt in their houses.

So in Poland someone who wanted to help Jews did risk not only his own life but also life of many other people, somtimes tens of people (if it was a big building in the city).
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:52 AM   #68

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english translation:

NOTICEConcerning:
the Sheltering of Escaping Jews.
There is a need for a reminder, that in accordance with paragraph 3 of the decree of October 15, 1941, on the Limitation of Residence in the General Goverment (page 595 of the GG Register) Jews leaving the Jewish Quarter without permission will incur the death penalty.
According to this decree, those knowingly helping these Jews by providing shelter, supplying food, or selling them foodstuffs are also subject to the death penalty.

This is a categorical warning to the non-Jewish population against:
1) Providing shelter to Jews,
2) Supplying them with Food,
3) Selling them Foodstuffs.
Częstochowa 9/24/42
Der Stadthauptmann
Dr. Franke
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:45 PM   #69
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First of all you'll never understand it, as it seems. I am not sure whether you don't want or are not able to.
I mention historical facts. There was anti-semitism in Poland, one has to be blind or ignorant not to see this. I did never say, that the Polish anti-semitism was comparable with those of the Nazis. So don't put words in my mouth I didn't say.

To your questions. First, the Jews lived there, because they were granted special rights by the Polish-Lithuanian kings, while they were restricted to discriminating laws in the west. That doesn't mean, that there was no Anti-semitism. Already under Bahory who was not anti-jewish, antisemitism rose. second, I forgot the name of the Pole. I mentioned it in threads before. He wrote something like, if there would be a tree for every Pole who helped a jew, there would be a forest. If there would be a tree for every Pole who denunciated or killed a Jew, there would be a forest too. There were 3 million jews in Poland and 6000 righteous Poles, just compare it with the netherlands.
Beorna, as this thread is not going well according to your Apologistic attitude, you decide to derail it.
Please read the definition of trolling below:
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional responseor of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. "
Click the image to open in full size.
The "trollface", first appearing in 2008, is occasionally used to indicate trolling in Internet culture. Modern usage of the word itself dates from the 1980s.


So if you want to discuss topic other than OP. please start your own thread and do not try to derail existing one.

Last edited by Edward; November 13th, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:57 PM   #70
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Back to OP.
Below is a quote from article in "der Spiegel". I have quoted this article before but I think that not all historum members did rid it. Very interesting. The young generation of German historian demand explanation from their grandfathers and chllenge the Apologists myth of "clean" German armed forces.
Rape, Murder and Genocide: Nazi War Crimes as Described by German Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE

"Rape, Murder and Genocide Nazi War Crimes as Described by German Soldiers

By Jan Fleischhauer

The myth that the Nazi-era German armed forces, the Wehrmacht, was not involved in war crimes persisted for decades after the war. Now two German researchers have destroyed it once and for all. Newly published conversations between German prisoners of war, secretly recorded by the Allies, reveal horrifying details of violence against civilians, rape and genocide."

Last edited by Edward; November 13th, 2012 at 02:03 PM.
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