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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #71

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Beorna, as this thread is not going well according to your Apologistic attitude, you decide to derail it.
Please read the definition of trolling below:
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional responseor of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. "
Click the image to open in full size.
The "trollface", first appearing in 2008, is occasionally used to indicate trolling in Internet culture. Modern usage of the word itself dates from the 1980s.


So if you want to discuss topic other than OP. please start your own thread and do not try to derail existing one.
You ask me questions, I answer these question and am a troll because of that?
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #72

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Back to OP.
Below is a quote from article in "der Spiegel". I have quoted this article before but I think that not all historum members did rid it. Very interesting. The young generation of German historian demand explanation from their grandfathers and chllenge the Apologists myth of "clean" German armed forces.
Rape, Murder and Genocide: Nazi War Crimes as Described by German Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE

"Rape, Murder and Genocide Nazi War Crimes as Described by German Soldiers

By Jan Fleischhauer

The myth that the Nazi-era German armed forces, the Wehrmacht, was not involved in war crimes persisted for decades after the war. Now two German researchers have destroyed it once and for all. Newly published conversations between German prisoners of war, secretly recorded by the Allies, reveal horrifying details of violence against civilians, rape and genocide."
We talked about Fleischhauer and the book "Soldiers" by Neitzel and Welzer, but it seems you didn't understand a bit about it. You use this really good book as weapon.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
We talked about Fleischhauer and the book "Soldiers" by Neitzel and Welzer, but it seems you didn't understand a bit about it. You use this really good book as weapon.
No beornia. I’m just quoting German sources without any comments from my side.
It is not a weapon confrontation. It is a discussion about WWII German Armed forces behaviour. You always attempt to derail such discussion by personal attack.
Of course, beorna, only you have a monopoly for understanding the events. Whoever is not agreeing with you he simply “does not understand the issue”
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Old November 13th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #74

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Quote:
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No beornia. I’m just quoting German sources without any comments from my side.
Yes, without any comment at all and completely out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
It is not a weapon confrontation. It is a discussion about WWII German Armed forces behaviour.


I can't see that you are interested in a discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
You always attempt to derail such discussion by personal attack.
You mean like calling somebody a troll, when he answers your question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Of course, beorna, only you have a monopoly for understanding the events. Whoever is not agreeing with you he simply “does not understand the issue”
For what do you critisize me? That I agree that the Wehrmacht was involved in nazi crimes and is responsible for war crimes? Are you blaming me for this?
Do you critisize me, cos i agree that there were many war crimes of Wehrmacht soldiers? Are you blaming me for this?
Do you critizising me, that i agree, that Wehrmacht soldiers participated in nazi crimes? Are you blaming me for this?
Stop simply to attack me permanently personal and don't distort or misuse sources.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #75
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See your post 41 . this is a troll and personall attack on me.
I’m glad that you finally agree with most of us that German soldiers knew exactly what they were fighting for.

Last edited by Edward; November 13th, 2012 at 11:26 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #76

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See your post 41 . this is a troll and personall attack on me.
You may feel insulted by the first part. nevertheless is my statement correct. you excused in a former thread the imprisonment of jews in Bereza Kartuska with tax crimes. you blamed the murdered ethnic Germans, e.g. around Bromberg, a several times as 5th column. You ignore facts, allthough you could know it better. But you blame the germans in WWII for this.

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I’m glad that you finally agree with most of us that German soldiers knew exactly what they were fighting for.
BS. Leave such stupid statements. You are distorting deliberately my words!
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Old November 14th, 2012, 03:56 AM   #77

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Quote:
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See your post 41 . this is a troll and personall attack on me.
I’m glad that you finally agree with most of us that German soldiers knew exactly what they were fighting for.
For those who are interested in the background of these former discussion. It is from the thread

Re: Alleged and real Polish atrocities during WWII Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna Click the image to open in full size.

Another point i mentioned is Bereza Kartuska, a Polish KZ for oppositional Poles, for Germans and Jews. It was not a KZ like Auschwitz, more like the older style KZ, where the imprisoned were destroyed by work.



Posted by edward : "Bereza Kartuska Prison or Detention Camp (or concentration camp if you like) was established in 1934.
Starting from this year, the illegal activity of Polish Communist and right wing Polish Nationalist as well as Ukrainian Nationalist (both organisations were a fascist organisation by today standard) intensified due to overall changes in political situation in Europe. Limited number of common criminals has been detained there for economical crime such as tax avoidance.
The incarceration in this prison (or camp) was on the base of administrative decision by Minister of Interior and maximum term was 3 months. After this if prosecution could not present a viable act of prosecution to the revellent court, the prisoner has to be released.
In some special cases, the detentions could be extended by relevant court order but not for longer than another 3 months.
Any inmates could be released with immediate effect if he signs document stating that he will cease all illegal activity directed against the state.

Estimates ranges from 3000 to 15000 of inmates during the period 1934-1939. The exact will be probably never known as the documentation was destroyed during the Soviet invasion in1939.
Anyway, soviet sources stating number of prisoner around 10000 if this info could be trusted as most of the prisoners were communists. At the start of the WWII, the prison was intended for use as an interment camp for German nationals but due to Soviet aggression in 17/9/1939 it was not enough time for implementing this plans.

During the existence of the prison, some Jewish nationals have been imprisoned as members of illegal Communist Party and some has been imprisoned for repeated tax avoidance crime. But the overwhelming majority of inmates have been Polish and Ukrainian communists or right wing nationalist.
The overall death in this prison during its existence was 18 prisoners. If we assume overall number of prisoners for, say mid number around 8000, the death rate is around 0.002. This rate is similar to normal death rate caused by natural reason.

So anybody can call this detention camp whatever he wonted. If this suit somebody to call it Concentration Camp, this is fine with me. But do not compare this institution to German concentration Camp or Russian Gulag and do not use word such as “to destroy people”. This was speciality of different organisations….. and different nation."

here the english wiki:
Bereza_Kartuska_prison Bereza_Kartuska_prison

Perhaps one of our Polish members or Edward can translate the following from the Polish site, if not I can give the translation, as well.

"Jednym z celów obozu było złamanie psychiczne osadzonych, aby już nigdy nie sprzeciwiali się władzom państwowym. Zakładano, że wystarczy na to 3 miesiące, ale opornym można było przedłużyć pobyt. W obozie oprócz tortur psychicznych znęcano się fizycznie nad osadzonymi[4]. Zdaniem P. Siekanowskiego obóz był wzorowany na obozach niemieckich i obozach sowieckich[5]."

Or should I?

"One of the goals of the camp was the mental breaking of the inmates, which was never objected by the state authorities. It was assumed that it is sufficient for three months, but it could be reluctant to extend the stay. In addition to psychological torture the camp physically abused the prisoners. [4] According to P. Siekanowskiego the camp was modeled on the German camps and Soviet camps. [5]"

The whole Polish article about Bereza katuszka is really very interesting. You all should read it. It shows as well that Poles today care about their history, instead to continue with nationalistic or communistic post-war ideologies. Well, it seems some Poles abroad missed these process.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 06:24 AM   #78

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It is common knowledge - even, and maybe: particularly in Germany - that the Wehrmacht was heavily involved in war crimes and crimes against humanity. It is thus a misconception to think that today's Germans would be apologetic in regard to German WWII soldiers. Of course, there are always exceptions, but I am talking about the mainstream of both scholars and the general public.

It is true that in the 1950s the myth of an innocent Wehrmacht was common. With the societal changes in the late 1960s and the 1970s, this myth has been damaged severely, with the generation born after the war demanding explanations and justifications from their parents and grandparents. The 1990s saw another wave of arguments about the role of the Wehrmacht, in particular with a famous exhibition revealing many crimes committed by Wehrmacht soldiers.

What maybe specific for the German debate, and what could falsely be understood as apologetic, is the fact that many people who grew up in post-war Germany have become very critical and sceptical towards any military whatsoever. Since the debate in Germany cannot take place along a clear-drawn boundary between good ("we") and evil ("them"), the questions we ask tend to get a more philosophical spin in the direction of the morality of citizens, soldiers, and men in general - and not along national lines.

Some phenomena which occurred in the German army of WWII can indeed be generalized to other armies. It is common psychological knowledge that a violent environment or an authority that encourages (or at least does not punish) a certain behavior can give rise to a state of moral disinhibition. There are many examples in the wars of the last decades where such things occurred; of course on a much smaller scale than in happened in the Wehrmacht, and of a different quality.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 07:55 AM   #79

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimald View Post
It is common knowledge - even, and maybe: particularly in Germany - that the Wehrmacht was heavily involved in war crimes and crimes against humanity. It is thus a misconception to think that today's Germans would be apologetic in regard to German WWII soldiers. Of course, there are always exceptions, but I am talking about the mainstream of both scholars and the general public.

It is true that in the 1950s the myth of an innocent Wehrmacht was common. With the societal changes in the late 1960s and the 1970s, this myth has been damaged severely, with the generation born after the war demanding explanations and justifications from their parents and grandparents. The 1990s saw another wave of arguments about the role of the Wehrmacht, in particular with a famous exhibition revealing many crimes committed by Wehrmacht soldiers.

What maybe specific for the German debate, and what could falsely be understood as apologetic, is the fact that many people who grew up in post-war Germany have become very critical and sceptical towards any military whatsoever. Since the debate in Germany cannot take place along a clear-drawn boundary between good ("we") and evil ("them"), the questions we ask tend to get a more philosophical spin in the direction of the morality of citizens, soldiers, and men in general - and not along national lines.

Some phenomena which occurred in the German army of WWII can indeed be generalized to other armies. It is common psychological knowledge that a violent environment or an authority that encourages (or at least does not punish) a certain behavior can give rise to a state of moral disinhibition. There are many examples in the wars of the last decades where such things occurred; of course on a much smaller scale than in happened in the Wehrmacht, and of a different quality.
absolutely correct
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Old November 14th, 2012, 11:36 AM   #80

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ok but how is camp in Bereza connected with OP?
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