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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:06 PM   #81

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Since the Eastern Front seems to be brought up frequently in this discussion, what about a comparison of how much Wehrmacht soldiers knew about the atrocities of their government with what their Red Army counterparts knew about what the NKVD was doing?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #82

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ok but how is camp in Bereza connected with OP?
It is not connected. But it shows how easy people can ignore things,even if they are obviously!
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #83

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Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
Since the Eastern Front seems to be brought up frequently in this discussion, what about a comparison of how much Wehrmacht soldiers knew about the atrocities of their government with what their Red Army counterparts knew about what the NKVD was doing?
I never asked myself what Red Army soldiers knew. I just have the impression, that some even don't know about it today , when I look at some discussions
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #84

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I never asked myself what Red Army soldiers knew. I just have the impression, that some even don't know about it today , when I look at some discussions
I don't think it's been dealt with as much as the issue with the Germans, but I think a fair comparison could be made and help in better understanding how much German soldiers would've known.

To give a random example, this is about the Soviet reprisals against the Kalymks, and one NKVD veteran gives the same kind of rationalization as his SS counterpart gave of "we were just following orders".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J68_...feature=relmfu

Now how much did Red Army soldiers at the front know about this happening?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:54 PM   #85
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For those who are interested in the background of these former discussion. It is from the thread

Re: Alleged and real Polish atrocities during WWII Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna Click the image to open in full size.

Another point i mentioned is Bereza Kartuska, a Polish KZ for oppositional Poles, for Germans and Jews. It was not a KZ like Auschwitz, more like the older style KZ, where the imprisoned were destroyed by work.



Posted by edward : "Bereza Kartuska Prison or Detention Camp (or concentration camp if you like) was established in 1934.
Starting from this year, the illegal activity of Polish Communist and right wing Polish Nationalist as well as Ukrainian Nationalist (both organisations were a fascist organisation by today standard) intensified due to overall changes in political situation in Europe. Limited number of common criminals has been detained there for economical crime such as tax avoidance.
The incarceration in this prison (or camp) was on the base of administrative decision by Minister of Interior and maximum term was 3 months. After this if prosecution could not present a viable act of prosecution to the revellent court, the prisoner has to be released.
In some special cases, the detentions could be extended by relevant court order but not for longer than another 3 months.
Any inmates could be released with immediate effect if he signs document stating that he will cease all illegal activity directed against the state.

Estimates ranges from 3000 to 15000 of inmates during the period 1934-1939. The exact will be probably never known as the documentation was destroyed during the Soviet invasion in1939.
Anyway, soviet sources stating number of prisoner around 10000 if this info could be trusted as most of the prisoners were communists. At the start of the WWII, the prison was intended for use as an interment camp for German nationals but due to Soviet aggression in 17/9/1939 it was not enough time for implementing this plans.

During the existence of the prison, some Jewish nationals have been imprisoned as members of illegal Communist Party and some has been imprisoned for repeated tax avoidance crime. But the overwhelming majority of inmates have been Polish and Ukrainian communists or right wing nationalist.
The overall death in this prison during its existence was 18 prisoners. If we assume overall number of prisoners for, say mid number around 8000, the death rate is around 0.002. This rate is similar to normal death rate caused by natural reason.

So anybody can call this detention camp whatever he wonted. If this suit somebody to call it Concentration Camp, this is fine with me. But do not compare this institution to German concentration Camp or Russian Gulag and do not use word such as “to destroy people”. This was speciality of different organisations….. and different nation."

here the english wiki:
Bereza Kartuska prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps one of our Polish members or Edward can translate the following from the Polish site, if not I can give the translation, as well.

"Jednym z celów obozu było złamanie psychiczne osadzonych, aby już nigdy nie sprzeciwiali się władzom państwowym. Zakładano, że wystarczy na to 3 miesiące, ale opornym można było przedłużyć pobyt. W obozie oprócz tortur psychicznych znęcano się fizycznie nad osadzonymi[4]. Zdaniem P. Siekanowskiego obóz był wzorowany na obozach niemieckich i obozach sowieckich[5]."

Or should I?

"One of the goals of the camp was the mental breaking of the inmates, which was never objected by the state authorities. It was assumed that it is sufficient for three months, but it could be reluctant to extend the stay. In addition to psychological torture the camp physically abused the prisoners. [4] According to P. Siekanowskiego the camp was modeled on the German camps and Soviet camps. [5]"

The whole Polish article about Bereza katuszka is really very interesting. You all should read it. It shows as well that Poles today care about their history, instead to continue with nationalistic or communistic post-war ideologies. Well, it seems some Poles abroad missed these process.
Nice troll, beorna Open anather thread to discuss it. Do not derail this one.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #86
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beorna;1251683]How do you know this?


For the statement of mass rapes I would like to see sources. Nobody knows how many were raped. Instead of this we know, that the Wehrmacht persecuted rape cases. I am convinced, that the few thousands who were sentenced are not all, but nobody can say how many were rapists.
Look at my post 70 quoting "der spiegel". You will have your primary sources.Examples below;
Wallus: "In Warsaw , our troops had to wait in line in front of the building's door. In Radom , the first room was full while the truck people stood outside. Each woman had 14 to 15 men per hour. They replaced the women every two days."
Niwiem: "I have to say that we weren't nearly as respectable in France sometimes. When I was in Paris , I saw our soldiers grabbing girls in the middle of a bar, throwing them across a table and -- end of story! Married women, too!"




Müller: "When I was in Kharkov (in present-day Ukraine ), everything was destroyed except the center of the city. A wonderful city, a wonderful memory. All the people there spoke a little German, which they had learned in school. And in Taganrog (in Russia ) there were wonderful cinemas and wonderful beach cafés. I went everywhere in a truck. And all you saw were women doing compulsory labor."
Fausst: "Oh, my God!"
Müller: "They were building roads, drop-dead gorgeous girls. So we drove by, pulled them into the truck, screwed them and them threw them out again. Boy, they sure cursed at us."



Reimbold: "In the first officers' prison camp where I was being kept here, there was a really stupid guy from Frankfurt , a young lieutenant, a young upstart. There were eight of us sitting around a table and talking about Russia . And he said: 'Oh, we caught this female spy who had been running around in the neighborhood. First we hit her in the tits with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet. Then we ****ed her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her. Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.' And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I got up and said: Gentlemen, this is too much."

Last edited by Edward; November 14th, 2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
I don't think it's been dealt with as much as the issue with the Germans, but I think a fair comparison could be made and help in better understanding how much German soldiers would've known.

To give a random example, this is about the Soviet reprisals against the Kalymks, and one NKVD veteran gives the same kind of rationalization as his SS counterpart gave of "we were just following orders".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J68_...feature=relmfu

Now how much did Red Army soldiers at the front know about this happening?
Everybody in Soviet Union was affected, more or less, by terror of 1930’s. So we can safely assume that the average Red Army soldier did know exactly what was going on. But they believed that it was done for their own good so they accepted it as necessary.
The same apply to German soldiers. They did know as much as they wonted to know. But they believed, in their vast majority, that it was necessary for the future of 1000 Year Reich and they accepted it.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #88

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Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Look at my post 70 quoting "der spiegel". You will have your sources.Examples below;
Wallus: "In Warsaw , our troops had to wait in line in front of the building's door. In Radom , the first room was full while the truck people stood outside. Each woman had 14 to 15 men per hour. They replaced the women every two days."
Niwiem: "I have to say that we weren't nearly as respectable in France sometimes. When I was in Paris , I saw our soldiers grabbing girls in the middle of a bar, throwing them across a table and -- end of story! Married women, too!"




Müller: "When I was in Kharkov (in present-day Ukraine ), everything was destroyed except the center of the city. A wonderful city, a wonderful memory. All the people there spoke a little German, which they had learned in school. And in Taganrog (in Russia ) there were wonderful cinemas and wonderful beach cafés. I went everywhere in a truck. And all you saw were women doing compulsory labor."
Fausst: "Oh, my God!"
Müller: "They were building roads, drop-dead gorgeous girls. So we drove by, pulled them into the truck, screwed them and them threw them out again. Boy, they sure cursed at us."
There served more than 18 million soldiers in the Wehrmacht and SS. If just 0.1% would have commit war crimes, it would give 18,000 cases, you could list. That would be an impressive list for you, wouldn't it? If 1% knew about war crimes you could list here 180,000 cases and so on. What would these cases mean for the rest of the 18 millions? if you would not quote only some sources, but read the book, you could see, that just a very minimum of the talks was about such things and that the authors couldn't say what was real, what rumours and what bravado talking.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #89

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Nice troll, beorna Open anather thread to discuss it. Do not derail this one.
Your posting is self-explanatory!
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Old November 14th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #90
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There served more than 18 million soldiers in the Wehrmacht and SS. If just 0.1% would have commit war crimes, it would give 18,000 cases, you could list. That would be an impressive list for you, wouldn't it? If 1% knew about war crimes you could list here 180,000 cases and so on. What would these cases mean for the rest of the 18 millions? if you would not quote only some sources, but read the book, you could see, that just a very minimum of the talks was about such things and that the authors couldn't say what was real, what rumours and what bravado talking.
Reimbold: "In the first officers' prison camp where I was being kept here, there was a really stupid guy from Frankfurt , a young lieutenant, a young upstart. There were eight of us sitting around a table and talking about Russia . And he said: 'Oh, we caught this female spy who had been running around in the neighborhood. First we hit her in the tits with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet. Then we ****ed her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her. Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.' And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I got up and said: Gentlemen, this is too much."
there was 8+1 officers listening and only one reacted humanly. So you could say that 11.1% did not accept this behaviour and acted humanly.
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