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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #81

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Originally Posted by arras View Post
We did when they gloriously brought democracy in to Bahrain last year.
Don't ever change, Arras.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #82
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Good that you specified the modern era because in the past Arabs were not to be trifled with. Anyway in the first gulf war, we had a coalition of the best and most advanced militarizes on the planet. Quantity doesn't beat QualityandQuantity. The advancement of the "Western" militaries in the last 200 years has currently put them at an edge and they now control not only the weapons trade but the dimplomatic swing as well. Even if Arab nations wanted to arm themselves it would be useless with the amount of people probably going to go against them equaling a lack of weapons
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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #83

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Despite the article being posted on a website with an obvious agenda or bias, I didn't take De Atkine's piece as racist. He didn't seem to be saying that Arabs make poor soldiers, but rather that there are problems with modern Arab military culture that have contributed to their losses in recent wars.

Even if the author is racist however it doesn't necessarily mean the contents of the entire article should be discarded. I do think he makes some legitimate observations on why Arab armies, generally speaking, have performed poorly in the modern era.

While technological deficiencies are of course partly to blame for the poor performance against Western or Israeli armies, the technological gulf between opponents isn't the whole story. Even in situations where Arab armies should have performed well against Western or Israeli opponents, or at least have caused more casualties before an inevitable defeat, they have often failed to do so. As examples, during Israel's wars there are multiple incidents where Israeli Sherman tank formations trounced Arab formations in heavier T-55s and T-62s. During the Gulf War, US Marine Reserve units in M60 tanks defeated Iraqi armor formations of T-62s and T-72s in just as lopsided a fashion as units equipped with the M1A1 Abrams. There are even examples in Marine units in lighter vehicles such as LAVs, defeating Iraqi armor, while taking little or no casualties. The main difference is that the Israeli and Western opponents were far better trained, and had more competent small unit leaders and NCOs. They were able to react immediately and adapt to the changing situation on the ground, whereas in comparison, their opponents were not.

In situations like the examples listed above where the technological gulf was not as vast, the Arab armies should have performed better. That they didn't is due in large part to the failings of the leadership in those armies, a complete lack of a competent NCO corps, poor training in comparison to their opponents, and an inability of small unit leaders to take initiative in the abscence of orders from High Command or to adapt to the unexpected.

Last edited by Scaeva; November 17th, 2012 at 12:05 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:07 PM   #84
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The opera magna of Col. De Atkine couldn't be "racist", because there is not any "Arab race".

Click the image to open in full size.

Aside of the Dubai Desert Car Race, of course.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #85

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The opera magna of Col. De Atkine couldn't be "racist", because there is not any "Arab race".

Click the image to open in full size.

Aside of the Dubai Desert Car Race, of course.
The whole concept of race itself is on outdated holdover from the 18th Century.

I was using the term racist to mean a bias against people of a certain ethnic or national origin. I wasn't implying that the Arabs themselves, are a distinct race seperate from the rest of humanity.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #86
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The whole concept of race itself is on outdated holdover from the 18th Century.

I was using the term racist to mean a bias against people of a certain ethnic or national origin. I wasn't implying that the Arabs themselves, are a distinct race seperate from the rest of humanity.
Don't worry, I was well aware; I clearly failed in making the irony here explicit enough

Just for the sake of clarity, rest assured Col. De Atkine is extremely discriminatory in this book in spite of his explicit knowledge on several excellent reasons why he shouldn't be.

IMHO some wise marketing would be the most economic explanation for such apparent paradox.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 09:25 PM   #87

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Don't worry, I was well aware; I clearly failed in making the irony here explicit enough

Just for the sake of clarity, rest assured Col. De Atkine is extremely discriminatory in this book in spite of his explicit knowledge on several excellent reasons why he shouldn't be.

IMHO some wise marketing would be the most economic explanation for such apparent paradox.
How the author evaluates/rates the crossing of Bar Lev line in 1973 ? or performance of the Morroccan/Algerian division in the Battle of France 1940 ?
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:08 AM   #88

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I found the article to be well-written and surprisingly unbiased, and I found the conclusions drawn to be logically sound.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:09 AM   #89

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After reading the opera magna of Col. De Atkine again & again with more care, must conclude that at least some Arabs tend to lose wars because their contenders tend to win.
That is not the cause, it is the result.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:52 AM   #90
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Not the best day for irony or critical reading, it seems.

No doubt what the discriminatory marketing of our good ol' Colonel was counting on.
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