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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #1
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Bereza Kartuska- Polish concentration camp?


Beorna is referring to my post below. I have challenged him many time to open new thread if he want to discuss this issue but obviously his aim was to derail thread http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/49263-where-german-soldiers-wwii-aware-awful-doings-adolf-8.html, not a decent discussion. So I have decided to open this thread myself.
Beornia, if you want to challenge any word of my thread below, pleas you have this opportunity now.

Posted by edward : "Bereza Kartuska Prison or Detention Camp (or concentration camp if you like) was established in 1934.
Starting from this year, the illegal activity of Polish Communist and right wing Polish Nationalist as well as Ukrainian Nationalist (both organisations were a fascist organisation by today standard) intensified due to overall changes in political situation in Europe. Limited number of common criminals has been detained there for economical crime such as tax avoidance.
The incarceration in this prison (or camp) was on the base of administrative decision by Minister of Interior and maximum term was 3 months. After this if prosecution could not present a viable act of prosecution to the relevant court, the prisoner has to be released.
In some special cases, the detentions could be extended by relevant court order but not for longer than another 3 months.
Any inmates could be released with immediate effect if he signs document stating that he will cease all illegal activity directed against the state.

Estimates ranges from 3000 to 15000 of inmates during the period 1934-1939. The exact will be probably never known as the documentation was destroyed during the Soviet invasion in1939.
Anyway, soviet sources stating number of prisoner around 10000 if this info could be trusted as most of the prisoners were communists. At the start of the WWII, the prison was intended for use as an interment camp for German nationals but due to Soviet aggression in 17/9/1939 it was not enough time for implementing these plans.

During the existence of the prison, some Jewish nationals have been imprisoned as members of illegal Communist Party and some has been imprisoned for repeated tax avoidance crime. But the overwhelming majority of inmates have been Polish and Ukrainian communists or right wing nationalist.
The overall death in this prison during its existence was 18 prisoners. If we assume overall number of prisoners for, say mid number around 8000, the death rate is around 0.002. This rate is similar to normal death rate caused by natural reason.

So anybody can call this detention camp whatever he wonted. If this suit somebody to call it Concentration Camp, this is fine with me. But do not compare this institution to German concentration Camp or Russian Gulag and do not use word such as “to destroy people”. This was speciality of different organisations….. and different nation."
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:51 AM   #2

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The term concentration camp is old, it was not founded by Germans. Indeed it was exactly used for the concentration of interior enemies. The German concentration camps from 1933 on where originally not different.

I translated the POLISH wiki site into english by google.translater.

"It was created July 12, 1934 in Bereza Kartuska under Legislative Decree of President Ignacy Moscicki of 17 June 1934 on the people threatening the security, peace and public order. [1] The idea of ​​the camp was the creation of the Prime Minister Leon Kozlowski, and his idea accepted Jozef Pilsudski. Regulation allowed for the creation of many of the places of detention, but created only one - in Bereza. The camp was located in the building of the former tsarist barracks [2]. It bore the official name of the "places of detention" and was intended for the people, "whose activities or conduct giving rise to the belief that the risk of violation of their safety, peace or public order". Determined it as a "not for people convicted or arrested because of crimes" and "disturbers of public order and security" [3].

The immediate impulse that prompted Piłsudski to decide on the establishment of the camp, it was the murder of Interior Minister Bronislaw Pieracki Maciejka committed by Grigoriy, an activist of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).


Imprisoned in the camp on the basis of an administrative decision with no right of appeal for a period of 3 months.
The rear could be extended for another 3 months (there have been cases settle the ongoing year). In addition to the suspected subversion and political opponents were imprisoned in the rehabilitation of offenders as economic or suspected of such offenses, common criminals - especially repeat offenders, and in the final phase of existence - suspected of subversion and espionage on behalf of the Third Reich.

Prison Bereza Kartuska organized: Director of the Political Department at the Ministry of the Interior Albert Żyborski ethnic and head of the Department in that department, Colonel Leon Yaroslavsky. Supervision due to the territorial jurisdiction exercised by Colonel Albert governor Polesie Kostek-Biernacki, often identified with his commander. In fact, they were the police inspectors Boleslaw (sometimes given name is John) Greffner from Poznan (December 1934), followed by Joseph Kamal-Kurhański.


One of the goals of the camp inmates had mental break that was never objected to the state authorities.
It was assumed that it is sufficient for three months, but can be reluctant to extend the stay. In addition to psychological torture camp physically abused the prisoners. [4] According to P. Siekanowskiego camp was modeled on the German camps and Soviet camps. [5]

The camp became operational July 6, 1934, the day the first five taken prisoners in the chair. 20 brought two national democrats from Krakow, ao h. 21 three Nowogródek Communists. The first inmates were activists ONR: Zygmunt Dziarmaga, Wladyslaw Chackiewicz, Jan Jodzewicz, Edward Kemnitz, Boleslaw Piasecki, Mieczyslaw Prószyński, Henry Rossman, Vladimir Sznarbachowski and Boleslaw Swiderski.


Among the approximately 16,000 people [6], which scrolled through the camp in Bereza Kartuska, they were not just activists, illegal or outlawed by governments remedial Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), the Polish Communist Party (KPP), the National Radical Camp (ONR) but also the people involved with the Peasants' Party (SL) and the Polish Socialist Party (PPS). Held there was such
for several days writer Stanislaw Mackiewicz, who was seated there for criticizing the country's foreign policy.

The camp operated until the moment you leave the region Polesie land by the authorities of the Second Republic, after the occupation of these areas by the Soviet Union in 1939, the prisoners were released by the Red Army.

Continued

In England, Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski used the camp on the island of Bute to hold their political opponents. Charged with the responsibility for Bereza Kostek-Biernacki Albert was interned in Romania, after the war, tortured, sentenced to death, and died shortly after his release.

The organization of the camp [7]

The number of prisoners in Bereza once ranged from 100 to more than 600 Numbers, which received came in 1939, approaching the 3000. In 1936 it was 369 inmates, including 342 communists. During the whole period of existence can be added Bereza 71 nationalists.
Jews were sent to Bereza mostly for fraud, including failure to pay taxes. More recently, the Germans sent there too.

Bereza were sent to those whose lack of evidence of guilt could not be brought to trial.
The threat was sent to Bereza forcing a form of behavior favorable to the government.
Admission to the camp

Arriving after the initial formalities,
during which insults were thrown at them, were sent to the quarantine of a temporary detention, which lasted three days. Interim Board was unfurnished, windows were killed half plywood, and the top was open, which prevailed in the winter there is always the temperature below zero. The floor was paved. Throughout the day, the prisoners had to be repatriated their faces to the wall. At night they lie uncovered on the concrete floor, but every half-hour cop woke inmates, telling them to get up, to stand against the wall in a row, counting, run, fall, jump. After the prisoners to lie down again on the half hour. Any breach in the attitude that any judge policeman, baton beatings caused immediate. Moreover, in the room that the prisoners were beaten continuously without any reason, and massacred them to the blood.
Gymnastics

Gymnastics led police or "trainers" recruited from criminal prisoners. Wanting to earn, were often cruel than the police., It was one of the greatest tribulations both in terms of duration (seven hours for those who did not were sent to work, and no breaks)
as well as its system of criminal conduct military exercises using still command "get down", "Creep", arranging for hours of transmission, etc. The purpose of these exercises was to achieve the greatest fatigue prisoner. Among the "athletes' chosen special group, ironically called" podchorążówką " . directed to the refractory (ie, those officers found it resistant) and newcomers. group practiced in the hall or in the summer serving as a studio betoniarską (each movement of the floor raised clouds of dust lying thick concrete layer to 5 cm and resulted in large shortness of breath) or corner block of flats, where the urine flowed paragraphs, spilling into a big puddle. Between thaw practiced crawling there. Prisoners had to move over. was not allowed to talk to each other. policemen turned These per "son of a bitch", "whore mother", "pig carcass." Smoking was prohibited.

Mieczyslaw Próżyński, a representative of the nationalist movement described in this so-called. gymnastics:


One of the ways oppression of prisoners in Bereza were called. night searches. For the purpose of fell into the police (...) - we all had to strip naked and run down the hall to a special room where we were waiting with their hands in the course of revision purposes. Seeded on the benches running gums police beat and beat well. On the back is the same story. The cell zastawaliśmy straw pallet and thrown from the overturned everything upside down, no one dared to have anything, not excluding a piece of paper or rag, for which he was beaten to unconsciousness. In five minutes the cell had to be ordered, or threaten our criminal practice.
These exercises elderly squeezed the tears from your eyes [8]

Toilets


Torture was even defecation. This physiological activity could settle once daily in the morning - 20 people became at peace with concrete floor and each command was obliged to unbutton to settle and fasten in a matter of seconds, which was obviously not enough time, so that people are constantly niewypróżnieni went, which was especially onerous for a few hours of gymnastics. Prisoners who cleaned the toilet cloths quickly destroyed, which had to be cleaned with his bare hands.
After sprzątnięciu dirt were not allowed to wash your hands, all protests were quickly suppressed, to one of the prisoners, the guards asked, "You bitch intelligentsia, you can eat lunch with ****."
Work

For work had to be done a little cleaning cloth paragraphs, so in practice with his bare hands. Before the meal was not allowed to wash your hands ubrudzonych feces. The most onerous work considered pumping water, which was done using a treadmill. T-bars were so attached that the prisoners had to work in the deep slope. They were ordered to perform the work of a completely meaningless as digging and filling ditches, moving heavy stones from place to place.
The shortcomings in the work of getting flogging prisoners from 5 to 50 beats in the face [5].
Revisions

Searches were carried out at night, during which all the prisoners had to strip naked and go down the hall over to one of the rooms.
During the transition were beaten with batons.
Daily Schedule

Reveille was at 4 am, a half hour after breakfast (coffee unsweetened cereal or soup and 400 grams of black bread for the day). About 6.30 began to "work" or "gymnastics", which lasted until the 11th Dinner was served at 12, composed of a hot fluid and fat-free potato portions. After lunch we continued activities. Dinner was given at 17 and consisted of cereal or coffee unsweetened Zuru. Preparations managed to sleep at 18.30. Rations were inadequate, Bereza prisoners remained hungry, and not allowed to parcels from their families. Prisoners are in camps in their own clothes, which quickly wore out, and the inability to wash and clean the stank terribly, causing additional discomfort.
Prisoners suffered primarily from arthritis and chronic inflammation.
Report on the state board isolated on 20 January 1939 [9]

A staff report Pruchniewicz camp on January 20, 1939 provides information on hunger [citation needed] because the food in the camp, the cost of food per prisoner was 49.48 cents.


General condition: 483 (in a hospital in Kobrin 4)

The general condition of the 479 board
because of the full 466
Post (bread and water) 13

Released


Breakfast - Coffee

Coffee for one solitary 25 grams on 446 secluded 1.365 kg
Sugar on 1 secluded 25 grams on 466 secluded 1.365 kg
Bread for 1 secluded 700 grams on 466 secluded 330.750 kg
Cottage cheese on 1 secluded 50 grams on 466 secluded 23.300 kg

Lunch - spaetzle


Pytlowany flour to 1 120 grams secluded on 466 secluded 55.920 kg

Potatoes for 1 secluded 500 grams on 466 secluded 230.000 kg
Bacon on one solitary 40 grams on 466 secluded 18.640 kg
Salt to 1 solitary 30 grams on 466 secluded 13.980 kg
Onions on 1 secluded 10 grams on 466 secluded 46.660
Dinner - Krupnik
Potatoes for 1 solitary 1000 grams on 466 secluded 466.000 kg
Bacon on one solitary 15 grams on 466 secluded 9.990 kg
Hulled groats on 1 secluded 100 grams on 466 secluded 46.600 kg

Cost


Trash board one secluded on 20 January is 49.48 gr.


Life after the camp


According to P. Siekanowskiego exempt from Bereza had to condemn the current political past and could not tell anyone or describe the situation inside the camp, under penalty of re-exile. After leaving the camp many prisoners suffered lifelong damage to physical and mental health, among others arthritis and other chronic inflammatory schizophrenia and depression [10].
The author in his work emphasizes that criminals who were privileged, said that they would prefer to spend years in prison than a hard day at the Bereza [11].
Number of victims

According to various estimates by 5 years of Bereza Kartuska observed from 4 to 20 deaths.
Norman Davies gives in his book on the history of Polish Fri "God's Playground" number of 17 deaths [12]. Agnieszka Knyt of a total of 3,000 prisoners incarcerated at Bereza the end of August 1939 gives 13 deaths [13].However, Viktor Idzio Ukrainian historian, in his book on the UPA, gives the number as many as 300 victims [14]. Henry Rossman ill with kidney and died, possibly as a result of staying in Bereza.
Controversy

Main article: Polish concentration camps.


Soon after the concentration camp was called, and after the war, its existence was used for propaganda purposes by the Communists, to show that the pre-war governments were remedial "fascist regime" [15]. The term "Polish concentration camps" to describe Bereza Kartuska eagerly exploited in their publications Communist propaganda communist regime [16] justifying the thesis of the anti-democratic and repressive nature of the capitalist political system of the Second Republic and the dictatorial tendencies of Jozef Pilsudski.


Several present, non-Communist, sources considered for the camp in Bereza concentration camp, including Professor Timothy Snyder of Yale University, the Library of Congress or the Polish Nobel laureate Czeslaw Milosz [17] [18] [19]. Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski at the University of New Hampshire, also called places of detention in a concentration camp Bereza Kartuska, reserving, however, that the creation of similar camps was the norm in those days, for example, giving the camps set up by the Americans to the Japanese during World War II and the Canadians for Ukrainians during World War I. [20].


The term also appeared in the pro-government newspaper, "Gazeta Poland" (No. 168, 19 June 1934) thus described Bereza Kartuska:


But we know what needs to be in Poland, because we so want. There must be order. Gravity must be and will be. Concentration camps. Yes. Why? Because they see these eight years working on the size of the Polish, eight years and eight years example achievements, eight years clotting - was not enough for all
"

Well, Edward, how shall we call such camp? Boot camp, holiday camp? I have seen that you have no respect for german victims. You repeated the insult, that jews (and later germans) were only imprisoned for crimes. Yes, that is not completely wrong. Jews under the nazi rule weren't send to KZ officially because they were jews, they were wrongly accused of tax crimes or slaughter illicitly. So it seems to me you have as well no respect of the jewish victims. I don't know how you think about the Ukrainians and other minorities. But don't you have even no respect of Polish victims of an undemocratic politics?

ah, BTW, as somebody down under you perhaps miss new developments.
About Poles and jews there is a new book,
Oxford University Press: Golden Harvest: Jan Tomasz Gross
Golden Harvest, Events at the Periphery of the Holocaust

by Jan Tomasz Gross
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
Well, Edward, how shall we call such camp? Boot camp, holiday camp? I have seen that you have no respect for german victims. You repeated the insult, that jews (and later germans) were only imprisoned for crimes. Yes, that is not completely wrong. Jews under the nazi rule weren't send to KZ officially because they were jews, they were wrongly accused of tax crimes or slaughter illicitly. So it seems to me you have as well no respect of the jewish victims. I don't know how you think about the Ukrainians and other minorities. But don't you have even no respect of Polish victims of an undemocratic politics?
As I said in copy of my previous post (see post 1) i do not care haw you call this preason. Usually definition of " concentration camp" is connected to Nazi Camps.Same of them below;

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/concentration+camp

"a guarded prison camp in which nonmilitary prisoners are held, esp. one of those in Nazi Germany in which millions were exterminated"
But as the detainee were held in this prison on the base of administrative decission, it was not an ordinary prison for sure.
As you attacked me many times regarding my post (see post 1), please show me what I said wrong in thios post? Do not try sidetracking of the real issue.

Last edited by Edward; November 15th, 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
As I said in copy of my previous post (see post 1) i do not care haw you call this preason. Usually definition of " concentration camp" is connected to Nazi Camps.Same of them below;

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/concentration+camp
Concentration_camp Concentration_camp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
"a guarded prison camp in which nonmilitary prisoners are held, esp. one of those in Nazi Germany in which millions were exterminated"
But as the detainee were held in this prison on the base of administrative decission, it was not an ordinary prison for sure.
"Not an ordinary prison for sure" Not an ordinary prison for sure? It was a brutal, inhuman camp with torture, to break political enemies and minorities who did not support the governmental politics. Where is the difference to a nazi KZ in 1934, 1935?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
As you attacked me many times regarding my post (see post 1), please show me what I said wrong in thios post? Do not try sidetracking of the real issue.
What's wrong with posting 1?

just an example

you quoted: "The incarceration in this prison (or camp) was on the base of administrative decision by Minister of Interior and maximum term was 3 months. After this if prosecution could not present a viable act of prosecution to the relevant court, the prisoner has to be released.
In some special cases, the detentions could be extended by relevant court order but not for longer than another 3 months. "

I quoted from the Polish wiki: "Imprisoned in the camp on the basis of an administrative decision with no right of appeal for a period of 3 months. The rear could be extended for another 3 months (there have been cases settle the ongoing year). In addition to the suspected subversion and political opponents were imprisoned in the rehabilitation of offenders as economic or suspected of such offenses, common criminals - especially repeat offenders, and in the final phase of existence - suspected of subversion and espionage on behalf of the Third Reich.....Bereza were sent to those whose lack of evidence of guilt could not be brought to trial. The threat was sent to Bereza forcing a form of behavior favorable to the government."

you quoted:"The overall death in this prison during its existence was 18 prisoners. If we assume overall number of prisoners for, say mid number around 8000, the death rate is around 0.002. This rate is similar to normal death rate caused by natural reason."

I quoted from the Polish wiki:"One of the goals of the camp inmates had mental break that was never objected to the state authorities. It was assumed that it is sufficient for three months, but can be reluctant to extend the stay. In addition to psychological torture camp physically abused the prisoners. [4] According to P. Siekanowskiego camp was modeled on the German camps and Soviet camps. [5].....Arriving after the initial formalities, during which insults were thrown at them, were sent to the quarantine of a temporary detention, which lasted three days. Interim Board was unfurnished, windows were killed half plywood, and the top was open, which prevailed in the winter there is always the temperature below zero. The floor was paved. Throughout the day, the prisoners had to be repatriated their faces to the wall. At night they lie uncovered on the concrete floor, but every half-hour cop woke inmates, telling them to get up, to stand against the wall in a row, counting, run, fall, jump. After the prisoners to lie down again on the half hour. Any breach in the attitude that any judge policeman, baton beatings caused immediate. Moreover, in the room that the prisoners were beaten continuously without any reason, and massacred them to the blood.
Gymnastics

Gymnastics led police or "trainers" recruited from criminal prisoners. Wanting to earn, were often cruel than the police., It was one of the greatest tribulations both in terms of duration (seven hours for those who did not were sent to work, and no breaks)
as well as its system of criminal conduct military exercises using still command "get down", "Creep", arranging for hours of transmission, etc. The purpose of these exercises was to achieve the greatest fatigue prisoner. Among the "athletes' chosen special group, ironically called" podchorążówką " . directed to the refractory (ie, those officers found it resistant) and newcomers. group practiced in the hall or in the summer serving as a studio betoniarską (each movement of the floor raised clouds of dust lying thick concrete layer to 5 cm and resulted in large shortness of breath) or corner block of flats, where the urine flowed paragraphs, spilling into a big puddle. Between thaw practiced crawling there. Prisoners had to move over. was not allowed to talk to each other. policemen turned These per "son of a bitch", "whore mother", "pig carcass." Smoking was prohibited.......

for which he was beaten to unconsciousness.......
Torture was even defecation."

Can you see the difference? Oh, I know you can't. Perhaps you let explain you the difference!?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #5
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So now I’m responsible for what I have not said. Haw ridicules.
Perhaps you should concentrate on what I have said in this post. Was there anything what was not historically correct?
Below is a break down according to the reason of detention;Please note that Communist Party as well as Fascist Party was illegal in Poland at that time. So we have communist and polish fascist inmates interned at the same time. This also include German Nazi activist.


Communists;
Year; 1934-70%,
1934-66%
1936-100%
1937-73%
1938-39%
1939-50% (Until end of August)

Polish Nationalists and Fascists
Year; 1934-10%,
1934-17%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-0%


Ukrainian Nationalists
Year; 1934 -30%,
1935- 17%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-0%

Nazi supporters
Year; 1934-0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-1%
1939-0%

Peasant Party Activists
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-1%
1939-0%



“Anti State Activists”
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-1%


“Sicz Karpacka”-Underground Army of Carpathian Ukraine (part of Ukraine under Czechoslovakian administration”
Year; 1934-0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-2%


Common Criminals
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-23%
1938-55%
1939-41%

Financial Criminals
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-4%
1938-4%
1939-6%

Last edited by Edward; November 15th, 2012 at 05:32 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 05:43 PM   #6

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Old November 15th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #7

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Concentration Camps - distinct from internment camps - were invented by the British in the South African Boer War at the turn of the 20th century. As defined in Wikipedia: Second Boer War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, "...the Boer War concentration camp system was the first time that a whole nation had been systematically targeted, and the first in which some whole regions had been depopulated."

It's also interesting that the purpose of these Concentration Camps was to house largely women and children of men being systematically hunted and eliminated in a war. The Nazi's addition to this system was to eliminate the inmates. The Soviet Gulags were more a "hell on earth" environment rather than elimination or housing.

The Nazi's and Soviets had no monopoly on "...brutal, inhuman camp with torture, to break political enemies and minorities who did not support the governmental politics." In a way that phrase can easily be applied to any conflict carried out by any political unit over the entire history of humanity. It still is a common practice by totalitarian regimes to eliminate internal opposition.

Concentration Camps have a specific purpose and target, backed by a much broader, calculated philosophy - elimination of Boers, of Jews, etc. The idea should not be applied to any form that utilises similar techniques. Let's not go the way of genocide which these days seems to be applied to any large scale killings, and not to what it was intended - the systematic destruction of a nation for being that nation.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
So now I’m responsible for what I have not said. Haw ridicules.
Perhaps you should concentrate on what I have said in this post. Was there anything what was not historically correct?
Below is a break down according to the reason of detention;Please note that Communist Party as well as Fascist Party was illegal in Poland at that time. So we have communist and polish fascist inmates interned at the same time. This also include German Nazi activist.


Communists;
Year; 1934-70%,
1934-66%
1936-100%
1937-73%
1938-39%
1939-50% (Until end of August)

Polish Nationalists and Fascists
Year; 1934-10%,
1934-17%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-0%


Ukrainian Nationalists
Year; 1934 -30%,
1935- 17%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-0%

Nazi supporters
Year; 1934-0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-1%
1939-0%

Peasant Party Activists
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-1%
1939-0%



“Anti State Activists”
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-1%


“Sicz Karpacka”-Underground Army of Carpathian Ukraine (part of Ukraine under Czechoslovakian administration”
Year; 1934-0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-0%
1938-0%
1939-2%


Common Criminals
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-23%
1938-55%
1939-41%

Financial Criminals
Year; 1934 -0%,
1934-0%
1936-0%
1937-4%
1938-4%
1939-6%
I told you already, that e.g. the jews in my town, and this is similar to other towns and cities were often arrested for common crimes like slaughter illicitly or financial crimes. Or to take another example. We speak today of about up to 280,000 political prisoners in the former GDR. These term did officially not exist in the terminology of the GDR. Only victims of the nazi terror were allowed to be called so in the GDR. all political prisoners were criminals against the anti-fascistic democratic order. So your statistic is probably questionable, too.

here a quote from the german wiki about "Schutzhaft" (preventive detention)
"Bereits im Mai 1933 ordnete der preußische Justizminister
Hanns_Kerrl Hanns_Kerrl
an, dass Personen, die wegen Verdachts auf staatsfeindliches Verhalten (von der Justiz) festgenommen worden waren, aber nicht mehr unter dringendem Tatverdacht standen (was Voraussetzung für die gerichtliche Anordnung von Untersuchungshaft war und ist), nicht ohne Zustimmung der
Geheimpolizei Geheimpolizei
aus der Untersuchungshaft entlassen werden durften. Reichsjustizminister Franz Gürtner verpflichtete 1935 die Gerichte, die
Gestapo Gestapo
unverzüglich zu benachrichtigen, wenn sie den Haftbefehl gegen eine Person, die eines politischen
Delikt Delikt
verdächtigt wurde, aufzuheben oder gar nicht erst zu erlassen beabsichtigte."




"Already in may 1933 the prussian minister of justice Hans Kerrl (he was from the NSDAP) ordered, that persons, who were suspected of subversive actions (and arrested by the justice), but were no longer under urgent suspicion (which would have been necessary for a judiciary order to put them in custody), shall not be released from custody without the approval of the political police. The Reichsjustizminister Franz Gürtner compelled the courts in 1935 to report immediately the gestapo, if the warrant against a person, suspected by a political offence should be released or if there was no intention to arrest such person."


See the similarity with Bereza, "(to) Bereza were sent ...those whose lack of evidence of guilt could not be brought to trial. The threat was sent to Bereza forcing a form of behavior favorable to the government."

Last edited by beorna; November 16th, 2012 at 01:12 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #9

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Brending Ukrainian nationalists as fascists is way too far fetched. It's like brending Tadeusz Kościuszko at the time being as a Nazi. Well, I know who does it.
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  Historum > Themes in History > War and Military History

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