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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #11

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Originally Posted by coldshot
Wouldn't that make it a melee weapon?
No, the pila were thrown.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #12
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No, the pila were thrown.
They were thrown... But... Where they thrown far enough that someone wielding one was safe from melee weapons? I mean... The idea of categorizing a weapon as a missile weapon is to rely the data that the user is safe from melee weapons but not from missile weapons...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #13

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They were thrown... But... Where they thrown far enough that someone wielding one was safe from melee weapons? I mean... The idea of categorizing a weapon as a missile weapon is to rely the data that the user is safe from melee weapons but not from missile weapons...
They are javelins. Javelins have always been considered missile weapons as far as I know.

Their estimated effective range is between 20-30 meters, which is comparable to the effective range of modern pistols.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #14
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They are javelins. Javelins have always been considered missile weapons as far as I know.

Their estimated effective range is between 20-30 meters, which is comparable to the effective range of modern pistols.
Well, but they are not record-braking... I only wanted record-breaking missile weapons...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #15

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Well, but they are not record-braking... I only wanted record-breaking missile weapons...
Ok, I was just responding to your point that javelins were melee weapons.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldshot View Post
Wouldn't that make it a melee weapon?
No, the pilum was a missile weapon...a javelin designed to be thrown, albeit at a relatively short range

Quote:
...where peltasts used in the role you would find archers? Or they were meant for close quarters combat? That maks a large difference on whether you could consider them melee or missile...
I think you mean "were" not "where"

The peltasts (named after the Pelta - the characteristic kidney shaped shield its users carried) were lightly armed missile troops...their very effective missile was a light javelin

Peltasts would not engage an enemy phalanx in close combat but instead would stay out of reach and rain down a hail of javelins on the heavy infantry opposing them

They didn't have perhaps the range of an archer but their missiles were somewhat heavier and more effective against armored infantry

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...the power of a hand grenade comes from its ability to explode, it is often hand thrown because that is the easiest way to keep the explosion away from the person employing it, however scenarios can exist where the weapon is equally lethal without it being thrown (it can be dropped on the target, it can be tied to an animal before making the animal run into the target, etc....
Indeed its explosive power makes it potent but it's STILL a missile weapon (in the same way that an exploding RPG-7 is also a missile)

Dropping it on targets below you is the same as throwing it...it's STILL a missile

As for strapping it to animals...that's the work of fiction I'm afraid

Quote:
...I would say it falls under "Handheld with mechanical trigger"... However I want record-braking missile weapons...
I think you mean "record breaking"

A grenade has a mechanical or chemical fuse not a trigger

The oldest form is simply a chemically treated piece of string that was manually lit

How do you class a sling?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #17
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No, the pilum was a missile weapon...a javelin designed to be thrown, albeit at a relatively short range
ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
think you mean "were" not "where"
True, I made a mistake, shoot me! I mean, thanks for pointing it out... I was distracted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
The peltasts (named after the Pelta - the characteristic kidney shaped shield its users carried) were lightly armed missile troops...their very effective missile was a light javelin

Peltasts would not engage an enemy phalanx in close combat but instead would stay out of reach and rain down a hail of javelins on the heavy infantry opposing them

They didn't have perhaps the range of an archer but their missiles were somewhat heavier and more effective against armored infantry
but what would they do once the rain of javelins fell? Would they run for their lives or they had a secondary weapon to close into the damaged adversaries?

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Indeed its explosive power makes it potent but it's STILL a missile weapon (in the same way that an exploding RPG-7 is also a missile)
the RPG-7 can kill a person even if it fails to explode, however if it explodes it can kill a person inside a vehicle or behind a parapet

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Dropping it on targets below you is the same as throwing it...it's STILL a missile
Try droping an arrow, bullet or javelin on a target below you, the javelin has the highest chances of being lethal, the bullet on the contrary has neglible chance of being lethal, but as missiles the bullet is the most lethal weapon and the javelin is the least lethal weapon when hand thrown and most lethal weapon when thrown with a ballista

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As for strapping it to animals...that's the work of fiction I'm afraid
Are you sure? There were projects to use bats to fly in swarms and explode upon hitting targets... If it came to the experimental stage I guess something like that could have been done once, maybe not on war but on a situation when someone used a hand grenade to kill someone else

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
I think you mean "record breaking"
typo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
A grenade has a mechanical or chemical fuse not a trigger

The oldest form is simply a chemically treated piece of string that was manually lit
I never addressed the grenade because I think it does not qualify as melee or missile weapon but as something else

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do you class a sling?
Handheld with mechanical trigger, I said it before...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #18
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You don't want much do you? Welcome to the siteClick the image to open in full size.
Thanks! Second person that tells me I do not want much... But I think its sarcastic well, I know its much but it is so just because I want to know how missile weapons compete with each other
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #19
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...but what would they do once the rain of javelins fell? Would they run for their lives or they had a secondary weapon to close into the damaged adversaries?
The wouldn't close with the enemy phalanx, their job was to slow it down or even cause it to break formation

An ancient general would use a force of peltasts in front of his own phalanx

Quote:
...try droping an arrow, bullet or javelin on a target below you, the javelin has the highest chances of being lethal, the bullet on the contrary has neglible chance of being lethal...
I take your point that what makes a grenade lethal is the explosive charge within it, but it's still a missile

A RPG can kill someone with a direct hit but really it would be a lucky shot as they're not that accurate. Like hand grenades, if they don't explode, they're useless

Yet no-one would deny an RPG is a missile weapon

Quote:
...are you sure? There were projects to use bats to fly in swarms and explode upon hitting targets... If it came to the experimental stage I guess something like that could have been done once, maybe not on war but on a situation when someone used a hand grenade to kill someone else...
Quite sure

There was a crazy exoeriment to see if bats could be trained to fly into combat with explosive attached to them...I remember seeing a History Channel show on it

I remember reading once about a German scheme to train dogs with mines attached to them to run under enemy tanks...no idea if this was actually true, certainly I've never read about it actually being attempted

Quote:
...handheld with mechanical trigger, I said it before...
I missed it...what's the mechanical trigger though?

The slinger just lets go one end of the sling, the same way a peltast often used a string loop tied to the center of the javelin to gain a better throw

Are you confusing the sling with a slingshot?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #20

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I remember reading once about a German scheme to train dogs with mines attached to them to run under enemy tanks...no idea if this was actually true, certainly I've never read about it actually being attempted
That was actually a Russian scheme. It failed because the dogs were trained to run to a tank where there was food waiting. They trained with Russian tanks so the dogs would ignore German tanks and make for Russian ones. When fielded with no Russian tanks in the area, the dogs would ignore the German tanks and run back to their Russian handlers, tails wagging!
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