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Old November 20th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #91
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Thanks Mosquito. That would make Lemkos just part of the Ruthenians. According to Slovak wiki, other divisions are Bojkovia, Huculi, Verchovinci and Dolniaci.


Sich is actually name of Cossack administrative unit, not capital. On the other hand, you can argue, that Ukrainians are Russians on their part. But regardless what we may think about their language important is Ruthenians declare themselves independent ethnicity and in Slovakia they are recognised as such. Slovakia is not alone in recognising them as separate ethnic group, other states who does as well are apparently Poland, Hungary, Bohemia, Croatia and Serbia. Ukraine on the other hand does not recognise them.
Qte.“Towards the end of the 15th century, the Ukrainian Cossacks formed the
Zaporozhian_Cossacks Zaporozhian_Cossacks
centered on the fortified Dnipro islands.”
Yes it was an region rather than capital, but also not an administrative unit. It was just a" Cossacks country", thats probably the best description.
Ukrainians are Ukrainians, not Russian. Otherwise we would have to say that Poles are Slovakian (or vice versa)
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Old November 20th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #92

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Seen through Stalin's eyes, the Nazi-Soviet Pact of August 1939 was an attempt to buy time, whilst gaining territory to shore up Soviet security.
Making common borders and fielding the most of the troops, armours and planes at them was never the way to buy a time for Soviets. When they really feared incoming invasion they established puppet states like this one -
Far_Eastern_Republic Far_Eastern_Republic

So if the Soviets were on the defence they would had proclaimed "independent" Ukraine and Belarus and withdrawn their forces to Russia. What they did is quite opposite.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 12:40 AM   #93
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I'm not justifying their claims, just describing them.
Yes, you do. Your logic is as below;
You say;Soviet Army did not cooperate with German Army.
It is nonsense; they invade independent country together on the basis of prearranged and agreed pact. They agreed the demarcation line before hostilities started.
They did not cooperate closely because Soviet attacked from the east, German from the other side so there was no direct contact of these two armies until they meet . When they meet, they cooperate; refer to siege of Lwow.
You say; Polish army was crashed at the time of Soviet invasion. Not quite true. The Campaign was lost but the Army was capable of further resistance for at least couple of weeks.
In any case, one country has no right to invade another country just because it is losing war with other neighbor. Especially if these two countries had valid Non Aggression pact between them.


Compare Invasion of France.
French Army was crushed at the time of Italian invasion. Italy had claims to French borderland for long time before hostility started.
Italian Army did not cooperate with German Army as they never meet. So this not makes Italy an ally of III Reich? Be reasonably.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 01:07 AM   #94

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Qte.“Towards the end of the 15th century, the Ukrainian Cossacks formed the Zaporozhian Sich centered on the fortified Dnipro islands.”
Yes it was an region rather than capital, but also not an administrative unit. It was just a" Cossacks country", thats probably the best description.
Ukrainians are Ukrainians, not Russian. Otherwise we would have to say that Poles are Slovakian (or vice versa)
Well it is up to Ruthenians to decide, if they are independent ethnicity or not.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:21 AM   #95
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Well it is up to Ruthenians to decide, if they are independent ethnicity or not.
Say a truth, Arras, Poland (Pilsudski in particular) was the only one country in the region which was interested in independent (or at least semi-independent) state of Ukraine (less part of Western Ukraine with Lwow) at that time. It was in Polish interest to create buffer zone between Poland and USSR. It did not work out, that's it.

Last edited by Edward; November 20th, 2012 at 03:32 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:00 AM   #96

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Say a truth, Arras, Poland (Pilsudski in particular) was the only one country in the region which was interested in independent (or at least semi-independent) state of Ukraine (less part of Western Ukraine with Lwow) at that time. It was in Polish interest to create buffer zone between Poland and USSR. It did not work out, that's it.
That is true, problem is it is Western Ukraine, annexed by USSR in 1939 we speak about. And Pilsudsky had no intention to release that. Independent Ukraine or not. And Ukraine IS Western Ukraine, there is practically no other because Eastern Ukraine consider itself to be part of Russia and not independent at all.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 06:12 AM   #97

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I'm not justifying their claims, just describing them.
Thanks for your answer, glad to hear that. I realise that from the other hemisphere things may look vague, but one's got to be rather careful with the term "historical territory".
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Old November 20th, 2012, 06:17 AM   #98

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Eastern Ukraine consider itself to be part of Russia and not independent at all.
That's largely a cliche, judging from the recent elections. Don't be so sure Russian speaking Ukrainians yearn for reunification with Russia (have a look at Kliczko and his Udar party)
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Old November 20th, 2012, 06:43 AM   #99
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Thanks for your answer, glad to hear that. I realise that from the other hemisphere things may look vague, but one's got to be rather careful with the term "historical territory".
Historical territory just means that such territory had once been ruled by some nation.

The territorial claims of any local nationalism all around this Planet have always been largely subjective, in the eye of the hardly unbiased beholder.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #100

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That's largely a cliche, judging from the recent elections. Don't be so sure Russian speaking Ukrainians yearn for reunification with Russia (have a look at Kliczko and his Udar party)
First of all, that is political not ethnical question. People does not vote politicians based only on ethnicity.

Second of all, not all Western Ukrainians consider themselves independent ethnicity either.

There is simply very large part of Ukrainians, I would say about half, which consider themselves ethnically Russian. Most of them live in Eastern Ukraine but nobody restrict people moving around based on ethnicity or language.

Independent Ukrainian national identity developed only in Western part of Ukraine which was for long time attached to Poland and later Austria-Hungary and which was in part forcibly catholicized.

This division runs deep in Ukraine and is source of many problems there.

Situation in Bielorusia is probably even more -lets call it- pro-Russian for sake of lack of better term.
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