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Old November 20th, 2012, 07:55 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Yes, you do. Your logic is as below;
You say;Soviet Army did not cooperate with German Army.
It is nonsense; they invade independent country together on the basis of prearranged and agreed pact. They agreed the demarcation line before hostilities started.
They did not cooperate closely because Soviet attacked from the east, German from the other side so there was no direct contact of these two armies until they meet . When they meet, they cooperate; refer to siege of Lwow.
You say; Polish army was crashed at the time of Soviet invasion. Not quite true. The Campaign was lost but the Army was capable of further resistance for at least couple of weeks.
In any case, one country has no right to invade another country just because it is losing war with other neighbor. Especially if these two countries had valid Non Aggression pact between them.


Compare Invasion of France.
French Army was crushed at the time of Italian invasion. Italy had claims to French borderland for long time before hostility started.
Italian Army did not cooperate with German Army as they never meet. So this not makes Italy an ally of III Reich? Be reasonably.
Nope, I have not "justified" anything, as anyone could easily verify here.

Or mentioned any "rights", for that matter.
You did, not me.

It couldn't be any more absurd to pretend that the Polish army may have not been definitively crushed by the Blitzkrieg by the time the Soviets so cowardly & opportunistically invaded, even for the standards of the most fantastic wishful thinking.

Exactly as the French army by the time il Duce so cowardly & opportunistically invaded.


BTW, previous to such unrequired Italian invasion ("unrequired" by the Germans; trust me), Italy had just been a de jure German ally (since 1937); de facto it was still neutral.

Not to mention that Italy also simultaneously bombed the British Malta.

Italy became a military German ally precisely for the close common military cooperation that was never present regarding the Soviet Union.

In fact, Italy actually actively helped Finland during the Winter War.

Last edited by sylla1; November 20th, 2012 at 08:48 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #102
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Not to mention of course that the deliberate distortion of the facts just to prove any evilness of Herr Hitler & Uncle Joe is simply absolutely unrequired.

There is already overwhelming relevant hard evidence on the ethical status of the shameless imperialism of both totalitarian dictators.

Pretending to force any unhistorical military alliance just from thin air is not going to modify an inch such evilness.

It is just going to cause massive unnecessary confusion for the analysis of the already complex facts of this period.
Period.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #103

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Independent Ukrainian national identity developed only in Western part of Ukraine which was for long time attached to Poland and later Austria-Hungary
Yes indeed, and it's very much worth bearing in mind while speaking brutal persecution of national aspirations. Some states were simply far more ruthless in eradicating unwanted national identities than others.

Eg. in order to eradicate all trace of centuries-long Polish cultural identity from the territory of Soviet Belarus and Ukraine in just a few months 111,091 people were methodically killed in mass executions on the orders of the Soviet Politburo (the sound drowned out by incessantly roaring lorry engines - the Bolsheviks practiced this from the onset)

The Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937

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Originally Posted by arras View Post
This division runs deep in Ukraine and is source of many problems there.
Meaning things could be so nice and simple if everyone just agreed to be Russian?

Deliberately starving and deporting millions of nationally -conscious Ukrainians and importing ethnic Russians in their place was bound to lead to some problems, you know.

Seriously, watching the developments I wouldn't be surprised if it all resulted in a split into independent (pro Western) Ukraine and incorporation of Eastern Ukraine into the ever hungry embrace of "Eurasia". But we're talking modern politics here.

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Situation in Bielorusia is probably even more -lets call it- pro-Russian for sake of lack of better term.
Why mince words? There was no nation more sorely tried in the 20th century, practically all their national elite was exterminated by the Soviets and Nazis. They lost even more people than Poland, and that's saying much. No force of resistance left and Sovietized they have been. But not thoroughly, it seems. They may surprise us yet.

Btw, this is a very interesting English-language source on Eastern Europe, do you know it? New Eastern Europe
It's published in Polish but translated into English.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:54 AM   #104

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Yes indeed, and it's very much worth bearing in mind while speaking brutal persecution of national aspirations. Some states were simply far more ruthless in eradicating unwanted national identities than others.
Well given amount of hatred by Ukrainian nationalists, they does not seem to make much difference between Poles or Russian in terms of eradicating them.

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Meaning things could be so nice and simple if everyone just agreed to be Russian?
Newer said nothing like that. It is Ukrainian business to decide who they are and I am not picking sides for sure.

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Deliberately starving and deporting millions of nationally -conscious Ukrainians and importing ethnic Russians in their place was bound to lead to some problems, you know.
I do not know the numbers but that certainly sound exactly the same what Poles did in Western Ukraine in interwar period.

You know, you may discuss passionately numbers of killed or deported with our Russian forumites but truth is, Poles did not act any better in principle toward both Bielorusians and Ukrainians. You were competing each other who will suppress local nationalists first all the way until 1939 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Seriously, watching the developments I wouldn't be surprised if it all resulted in a split into independent (pro Western) Ukraine and incorporation of Eastern Ukraine into the ever hungry embrace of "Eurasia". But we're talking modern politics here.
Split of Ukraine certainly is possibility. And in to more than 2 parts. There are Ruthenians who in case of split would most probably like to declare independence and there are Tatars in south east.

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Why mince words? There was no nation more sorely tried in the 20th century, practically all their national elite was exterminated by the Soviets and Nazis. They lost even more people than Poland, and that's saying much. No force of resistance left and Sovietized they have been. But not thoroughly, it seems. They may surprise us yet.
They were not alone.

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Btw, this is a very interesting English-language source on Eastern Europe, do you know it? New Eastern Europe
It's published in Polish but translated into English.
I'll look at it.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 09:36 AM   #105

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I do not know the numbers but that certainly sound exactly the same what Poles did in Western Ukraine in interwar period
Just a second.

Are you saying the government of the II Polish Republic carried out mass executions of its citizens from unwanted minorities, the way the Soviet Politburo did?

Now you've really got to back up this insinuation with facts.

I've just given you a link to the Polish Operation, in which 111,097 civilians were summarily executed in peacetime on the basis of their ethnicity.

The Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937

Please explain what you mean by "exactly the same".
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #106

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JPlease explain what you mean by "exactly the same".
As I already said, what I mean is that both Russians and Poles suppressed any signs of Ukrainian independence movement just the same.

As of body count produced by one or another I do not feel qualified to compare it and that was not my intention. I was not equalling mass killings made by Soviets and Poles, I meant principal policies of both Soviets and Poles which were the same. Namely to suppers independence of Western Ukraine.

Soviet invasion was clear aggression. However to me it does not feel right when Poles criticize Soviet ethnic policies on those territories.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #107
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First of all, that is political not ethnical question. People does not vote politicians based only on ethnicity.

Second of all, not all Western Ukrainians consider themselves independent ethnicity either.

There is simply very large part of Ukrainians, I would say about half, which consider themselves ethnically Russian. Most of them live in Eastern Ukraine but nobody restrict people moving around based on ethnicity or language.

Independent Ukrainian national identity developed only in Western part of Ukraine which was for long time attached to Poland and later Austria-Hungary and which was in part forcibly catholicized.

This division runs deep in Ukraine and is source of many problems there.

Situation in Bielorusia is probably even more -lets call it- pro-Russian for sake of lack of better term.
I would be not to sure about that. There is offcourse a lot of Ethnic Russians which moved into Ukraine during Imperial Russia and Soviet Union period as well Russian majority in Crime Peninsula which replaced native Tatars after forced deportation of Crimean Tatars from their homeland, but majority are Ukrainians and they consider themselves Ukrainians.
If we take primary votes during recent election, majority voted for further integration with European Union;
Party of Regions 6,116,815 votes
Opposition;
Fatherland Party 5,208,390 votes
UDAR party 2,847,878 votes

Oppositions party gain 1,939,453 popular votes more than pro Eastern integration Party of Regions. As the voting is not always going along ethnic division, in this case it is very close to ethnicity of Ukrainian population.

If you add another smaller opposition parties such as Svoboda (nationalists) 2,129,906 votes, this will tip the scale even more
Communists (2,687.246 votes) are split in their national fillings
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #108

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Well I do not know exactly how are Ukrainians divided. That is why I said about half. I know no relevant and objective research which would have been done on that topic and I do not think political voting is really representative as not all people vote or even qualify for vote and they do not vote on ethnic basis only anyway. There are many more issues which concern people other than ethnicity.

From Ukrainians I know, all identify themselves as Russians. There are not many of them however.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
did not Russia have a 'hand' in helping Germany start the war by having the pact with Germany?
Yes.

The III Reich had been on its way to expansionism, rearmament & war already for years, well before any rapprochement with the USSR, which happened not earlier than the end of July 1939 at the earliest.

Ostensibly the Führer overestimated his own capacity to delay the clash with the UK & France through bullying & diplomacy.

Previously both regimes had naturally been in extreme ideological opposition and had been on opposite sides of previous conflicts, notoriously the Spanish Civil War and the Sudeten affair.

Of course the Soviets were also ideological opponents of the Western democracies too.

Ergo, any clash between their own sworn enemies could only have been good news for the Soviets; Stalin understandably explored the possibility of supporting one side against the other without any direct involvement in any potentially costly armed conflict.

The Western Allies committed some serious diplomatic blunders, like excluding both the USSR & Czechoslovakia (both shared a defense agreement) from the critical Munich conference.

Tripartite talks between the UK, France and the USSR during the Spring of 1939 eventually failed in reaching any serious agreement, partially due to the understandable fear of Poland and other eastern European nations to any potential,intervention of the Soviet Union.

It was then when Stalin attempted his bold rapprochement to the fiercely anti-communist III Reich, by then isolated even from its nominal Italian ally; it seems clear that the initiative came fundamentally from the Soviet side.

After some cautious contacts, an overt German–Soviet Credit Agreement (critical for the Germans due to the predictable British naval blockade) was signed as late as August 19.
For the amazement of the whole world, a non-aggression pact between both powers was signed four days later, i.e. barely nine days before the first shots of WW2.

The same as most other rulers of the time (to some extent even the Germans themselves) Uncle Joe & co. in all likelihood expected some two-front lengthy attrition position warfare a la WW1 for months if not even years between the III Reich and its enemies; few people could have expected the impressive effect of the Blitzkrieg.

Last edited by sylla1; November 20th, 2012 at 05:32 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #110
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I almost forgot it; the Pact of 23 August 1939 naturally included the several times aforementioned secret and now famous protocol on the partition of Eastern Europe between both powers, largley analogous to the Tilsit treaty of 1807 betweem Monsieour Buonaparte & Alexander I.

Click the image to open in full size.

The left figure shows the accord what was signed.

The right one shows what was actually partitioned.

The difference was fundamentally due to the (naturally unrequested) Soviet invasion of Poland once the later's army had been definitely crushed by the Wehrmacht; i.e. more Polish territory now for the Germans in exchange of Lithuania for the Soviets.
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