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Old November 20th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by emperor of seleucid View Post
I guess USSR wanted a temp. truce with germany to take poland and develop their war capacities
Judging from the available documents, it's clear that both sides were well aware of the ambition for Polish territory of each other, and they were trying their best to achieve a viable compromise.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Let me guess; are you still proudly patriotically pretending that even after the portentous debacle of the brave Polish army at Buzra the German victory could have even remotely not been a fact yet?

Are you seriously pretending that in any of those endless telegrams posted here for no apparent reason there might be any single line where the Germans were asking for the "assistance" of the Soviets due to their inability to continue mercilessly beating to death at pleasure the brave Poles?

Being such the case, please don't be so shy any more and share the specific relevant line alone with us.
Thanks in advance.
ge, what this has to do with this thread?

The "assistance" was unnecessary militarly but was required for propaganda reason.
Are you still insisting that there was no military cooperation between Germany and Soviet Union?
If yes please ask mods to move this thread to speculative history fplder.
You can use your " creative " skills to introduce a "new history" according to Sylla.

In this thread somebody said;
"I used to have respect for Sylla and his opinions.."
I tend to agree with his assesement.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/19643-why-rommel-did-not-conquer-tobruk-1941-a-13.html#post446651 post 121

Last edited by Edward; November 20th, 2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #123
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ge, what this has to do with this thread?

The "assistance" was unnecessary militarly but was required for propaganda reason.
Are you still insisting that there was no military cooperation between Germany and Soviet Union?
If yes please ask mods to move this thread to speculative history fplder.
You can use your " creative " skills to introduce a "new history" according to Sylla.

In this thread somebody said;
"I used to have respect for Sylla and his opinions.."
I tend to agree with his assesement.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/19643-why-rommel-did-not-conquer-tobruk-1941-a-13.html#post446651 post 121
Aside of the obvious requirement of cheap ad hominems whenever evidence & knowledge are so ostensibly lacking, one couldn't even remotely imagine what on Earth would make you believe that Sylla1 could care any less about such petty unrequired assessment.

Back to the OP, so far the relevant hard evidence couldn't be any clearer; there was never any military alliance between Herr Hitler & Uncle Joe.

Nor any even remotely valid reason to so blatantly distort History, for that matter.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Aside of the obvious requirement of cheap ad hominems whenever evidence & knowledge are so ostensibly lacking, one couldn't even remotely imagine what on Earth would make you believe that Sylla1 could care any less about such petty unrequired assessment.

Back to the OP, so far the relevant hard evidence couldn't be any clearer; there was never any military alliance between Herr Hitler & Uncle Joe.

Nor any even remotely valid reason to so blatantly distort History, for that matter.
Sure, Sylla; in your imagination and according to "History by Sylla1"
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Old November 20th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #125

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As I already said, what I mean is that both Russians and Poles suppressed any signs of Ukrainian independence movement just the same.

As of body count produced by one or another I do not feel qualified to compare it and that was not my intention. I was not equalling mass killings made by Soviets and Poles.
To elucidate, there were NO mass executions of Ukrainian civilians or any other ethinc minority perpetrated by the government of the II Polish Republic (1918-39).

Your sentence construction makes out as if there were.

As for supressing national aspirations of Ukrainians, I've already expressed myself clearly: it was done and it was extremely wrong.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 11:54 PM   #126

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
To elucidate, there were NO mass executions of Ukrainian civilians or any other ethinc minority perpetrated by the government of the II Polish Republic (1918-39).

Your sentence construction makes out as if there were.
No, to make myself clear, I did not intend to compare bodycount, I do not feel qualified for that. Just principle of both countries policies toward these territories.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 01:39 AM   #127

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post deleted (poster realised she was posting about modern politics and repented the error
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Old November 28th, 2012, 11:06 PM   #128

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(I have bad English. Sorry)

December 28, 1938
Speaking counselor of the German Embassy in Poland Rudolf von Shelii Poland's envoy in Iran Karshi-Sedlevski, says: "The political outlook for Eastern Europe is clear. Few years Germany will be at war with the Soviet Union and Poland will support the war Germany. Better for Poland before the conflict definitely stand on the side of Germany, as the territorial interests of Poland to the west, and political goals of Poland in the east, especially in the Ukraine, can only be achieved by pre-made Polish-German agreement. He, Karshi-Sedlevski, subordinate its activities as Polish ambassador in Tehran to this great eastern concept, so as to convince and encourage the Persians and Afghans also play an active role in the coming war against the USSR "

December 1938.
From the report of the Second Department (Intelligence Division) Chief of Staff of the Polish Army, "the dismemberment of Russia is at the heart of Polish politics in the East ... Therefore, our position will be reduced to the following formula: who will take part in the partition?
Poland should not remain passive in this great historical moment. The challenge is to prepare well in advance of physically and spiritually ...
Main objective - the weakening and destruction of Russia. "

January 26, 1939.
In an interview with German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, foreign minister of Poland Yuzef Bek, held in Warsaw, said: "Poland claims to Soviet Ukraine and the exit to the Black Sea"

March 4, 1939.
Polish command after extensive economic, political, and operational research is completed a plan of war against USSR. "Vostok" ("Vskhud")
------------------------------------------------

The Poles ignored the fact that their uncles and grandfathers were the closest allies of Hitler in 1933-39. Hitler was guest of honor at the funeral of Polish dictator Joszef Pilsudski in 1934.
The Poles were Hitler's allies in the aggression against Czechoslovakia in 1938 (incidentally, the Poles did not open archives on Nazi-Polish agreements).

Just after Munich, the Polish general staff still swore by Pilsudski's "Prometheus" plan:
"The partition of Russia has fundamental importance for our policy in the East. Our position will depend on, whether we shall accept participation in this partition. During this favorable historical moment Poland should not stand aside. Our task to be prepared both morally and material. Our overall objective is to weaken and crush Russia".
From the report of the Polish Joint Staff, 1938 ("Z dziejow stosunkow polsko-radzieckich. Studia i materialy", T.III. Warszawa, 1968, S. 262, 287).
Winston Churchill's comment: " Poland is a greedy hyena of Europe"

Last edited by Serg(Rus); November 28th, 2012 at 11:40 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 11:42 PM   #129

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Originally Posted by Serg(Rus) View Post
(I have bad English. Sorry)

December 28, 1938
Speaking counselor of the German Embassy in Poland Rudolf von Shelii Poland's envoy in Iran Karshi-Sedlevski, says: "The political outlook for Eastern Europe is clear. Few years Germany will be at war with the Soviet Union and Poland will support the war Germany. Better for Poland before the conflict definitely stand on the side of Germany, as the territorial interests of Poland to the west, and political goals of Poland in the east, especially in the Ukraine, can only be achieved by pre-made Polish-German agreement. He, Karshi-Sedlevski, subordinate its activities as Polish ambassador in Tehran to this great eastern concept, so as to convince and encourage the Persians and Afghans also play an active role in the coming war against the USSR "

December 1938.
From the report of the Second Department (Intelligence Division) Chief of Staff of the Polish Army, "the dismemberment of Russia is at the heart of Polish politics in the East ... Therefore, our position will be reduced to the following formula: who will take part in the partition?
Poland should not remain passive in this great historical moment. The challenge is to prepare well in advance of physically and spiritually ...
Main objective - the weakening and destruction of Russia. "

January 26, 1939.
In an interview with German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, foreign minister of Poland Yuzef Bek, held in Warsaw, said: "Poland claims to Soviet Ukraine and the exit to the Black Sea"

March 4, 1939.
Polish command after extensive economic, political, and operational research is completed a plan of war against it. "Vostok" ("Vskhud")
------------------------------------------------

The Poles ignored the fact that their uncles and grandfathers were the closest allies of Hitler in 1933-39. Hitler was guest of honor at the funeral of Polish dictator Joszef Pilsudski in 1934.
The Poles were Hitler's allies in the aggression against Czechoslovakia in 1938 (incidentally, the Poles did not open archives on Nazi-Polish agreements).

Just after Munich, the Polish general staff still swore by Pilsudski's "Prometheus" plan:
"The partition of Russia has fundamental importance for our policy in the East. Our position will depend on, whether we shall accept participation in this partition. During this favorable historical moment Poland should not stand aside. Our task to be prepared both morally and material. Our overall objective is to weaken and crush Russia".
From the report of the Polish Joint Staff, 1938 ("Z dziejow stosunkow polsko-radzieckich. Studia i materialy", T.III. Warszawa, 1968, S. 262, 287).
Winston Churchill's comment: " Poland is a greedy hyena of Europe"
This is interesting and authentic material Serg (I read most of it before except March 4 - haven't seen this)

But don't overlook this basic fact:

Throughout the 1930's German diplomacy has repeatedly proposed, and then strongly pressed and blackmailed Poland to join the Antikomintern pact and attack USSR together with Germany.

The Polish government firmly REFUSED to join the Third Reich - even though the Germans lured it with a promise of the Ukraine and the "exit to the Baltic Sea."

As a result it wasn't Poland who joined Hitler as an ally - it was USSR.
Poland paid dearly for the refusal, but I can't say I'm sorry.
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Old November 29th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #130

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(I have bad English. Sorry)
The pre-war years - the difficult years.
Poland in 1938 was the desire to annex Lithuania. USSR did not give it to
USSR offered to help Czechoslovakia before its division of Germany and Poland. Such assistance was not needed, because Czechoslovakia agreed to give up their territory voluntarily.
USSR offered assistance to Poland in 1939, when the threat of an attack on Poland. Poland refused.
Look at the map of Poland. Where will the Germans June 22, 1941 when the Soviet Union did not take territory (Poland) after the government and the army fled.
Treaty with Germany secured the interests of the USSR in the Baltic. After that, the Soviet Union occupied the Baltic countries. Otherwise, the country ranked Germany.
Stalin made ​​a pact with Germany - the right thing. This was the preparation of the war. Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - no trump. This is a bargaining chip in the big game.
Today - Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq ... - also This is a bargaining chip in the big game.
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