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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by arras View Post
Well it was you who claimed that Poland would gave independence to Ukrainians and Bielorusians.
Where did I?

I don't recall indulging in speculative history on this topic, could you quote me to refresh my memory?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #52

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Back to the OP, we have already been here more than once.

Strictly speaking, Herr Hitler and Uncle Joe were never allies.
Period.

Please allow yours truly to quote myself from a related thread: AFAIK this summary is still perfectly valid.

The thread in question is here http://www.historum.com/war-military...tml#post930884

It is a really long thread (34 pages) but even so it may be worth reading it for anyone truly interested on this fascinating issue, as the posts from yours truly and several distinguished Historumites often included abundant relevant hard evidence on this issue.

Hope this stuff may be useful here.

It's useful but mostly wrong in my opinion.

You've argued according to a classical line of thinking by which, both powers operated without coordination and in open competition over central and eastern Europe.

After many years, the true coordinated plans among Germany and USSR are fully known, including the secret treaties among them, for long time hidden. Many of these clauses were unknown to the world up to 1993. On the last years I've been reading on the subject, and this has helped me a lot on the understanding of pre-war situation.

What we know today of these relations, is that a very close cooperation took place among them. There were no suspicions, not dissapointment among them but on a very little level. All of their movements were well coordinated from Romania to Finland, cooperation was intense on the economy sphere, they even entered into military cooperation by interchanging war material.

For example the situation you commented on Finland or Romania: in Finland, Germany went so far as blocking Italian military equipment that had been sent by Mussulini to Finish people. In Romania, Germany not only colaborated on its amputation by giving territories to German allies, but also pushed Romanis to colaborate with the USSR. Later, a point of friction emerged among Germany and USSR because of the oil fields administration.

I wouldn't call Germany and USSR truelly military allieds, but they were so in the political field, nearly as close as France and UK were. On the economy sphere, as soon as USSR entered in agreements with Germany, German trade skyrocketed by being mostly (80%) redirected to USSR. This trade include potential war raw materials like rubber, copper and oil, and also 20% of Germany agricultural production.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #53

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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
Where did I?

I don't recall indulging in speculative history on this topic, could you quote me to refresh my memory?
In text I already quoted. It seems to me you believe Poland would gave them independence:
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By 1939, Ukrainians and (to a lesser extent) Belarussians had developed strong determination to form their own separate states, independent of both of Poland and of USSR. They had every right to do so and their wish should have been respected.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #54

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In text I already quoted. It seems to me you believe Poland would gave them independence:
You misread me, the "should have" expressed my shame and regret they were not.

On the other hand, in spite of the official government policy, by the 1930's there was pretty widespread feeling in Poland that the Ukrainians should be given autonomy if not independence. The issue of Lwów remained a major stumbling block and bone of contention. Poles were the majority there (67,2% according to the 1931 census, Jews 21,6%, Ukrainians 9,2%, Germans 2%) Lwów was also the second university centre after Cracow (more important than Warsaw) and so imbued with centuries of Polish history nobody would even consider giving it up. It was a deadlock, really.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:02 AM   #55

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You misread me, the "should have" expressed my shame and regret they were not.
I see. Then I indeed misunderstood you and I apologise.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:04 AM   #56

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I see. Then I indeed misunderstood you and I apologise.
No need to, I shouldn't expect people to read between the lines. Especially on obscure historical issues
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #57
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It's useful but mostly wrong in my opinion.

You've argued according to a classical line of thinking by which, both powers operated without coordination and in open competition over central and eastern Europe.

After many years, the true coordinated plans among Germany and USSR are fully known, including the secret treaties among them, for long time hidden. Many of these clauses were unknown to the world up to 1993. On the last years I've been reading on the subject, and this has helped me a lot on the understanding of pre-war situation.

What we know today of these relations, is that a very close cooperation took place among them. There were no suspicions, not dissapointment among them but on a very little level. All of their movements were well coordinated from Romania to Finland, cooperation was intense on the economy sphere, they even entered into military cooperation by interchanging war material.

For example the situation you commented on Finland or Romania: in Finland, Germany went so far as blocking Italian military equipment that had been sent by Mussulini to Finish people. In Romania, Germany not only colaborated on its amputation by giving territories to German allies, but also pushed Romanis to colaborate with the USSR. Later, a point of friction emerged among Germany and USSR because of the oil fields administration.

I wouldn't call Germany and USSR truelly military allieds, but they were so in the political field, nearly as close as France and UK were. On the economy sphere, as soon as USSR entered in agreements with Germany, German trade skyrocketed by being mostly (80%) redirected to USSR. This trade include potential war raw materials like rubber, copper and oil, and also 20% of Germany agricultural production.
Nope.
Objectively they weren't.
It is simply a matter of evidence, not just opinion.

First, France & the UK are an extremely faulty analogy, because at least up to the debacle of May-June 1940 they couldn't have been any closer and more overt military allies.

Then, on the economy sphere, the USSR was in no closer (and purely commercial) agreement with the III Reich (or the western Allies, for that matter) than any other average neutral nation of the Planet with any contender, let say from Latin America or China.

In fact, such German-Russian/Soviet economic relationship came from long before the very III Reich, in spite of the obvious political & ideological opposition, unsurprisingly so for the most natural market reasons.

At war or at peace, business have always been business, even for the most idealistic wishful thinking of any Communist regime; easy as that.

And of course, as you have already implicitly acknowledged above, none of the secret agreements between Herr Hitler & Uncle Joe included any military alliance.

In a nutshell, the European war from September 1939 to June 1941 was fundamentally a three parties struggle; two parties overtly militarily clashing against each other and Uncle Joe perfectly eager to profit from the clash of his decades-long traditional enemies and to sell his favors to the highest bidder.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #58
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Well it was you who claimed that Poland would gave independence to Ukrainians and Bielorusians. I just wanted to know, why do you think so.
That was actually 1919-1921 Polish -Bolshevik war aim. Poland entered an alliance with Ukrainian fraction (could we call it Government?)of ataman Petlura and started Kiev Offensive together with Ukrainian Army. Treaty of Warsaw (1920) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Due to Bolshevik counteroffensive and lukewarm Ukrainian support for Ataman Petlura the plan was untenable and was scrapped. Most of Ukraine falls under Soviet Russia control after peace of Riga 1921.The remaining smaller parts were under Polish and Czechoslovakia (Carpathian Rus). Czechoslovakia also refused to give autonomy to their part of Ukraine, any indenpendence movement was unacceptable for Prague and was crushed by central government. So we can say that Ukrainians get a very rough ride from all neighbors. The Romunian-Ukrainian relations in Bessarabia was not a rosy affairs also.

Last edited by Edward; November 19th, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #59
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Siege of Lvov September 1939. German Army enclosed the city from the west (pink marking) and Soviet army from the East (one cavalry division and one armoured brigade.The attack was closely coordinated between both counterparts.21 September german army has been ordelly replaced by Soviet Army in all positions around the city.(Lwow was in Soviet side of Ribbentrop-Molotow line). 22 September Soviet Army accept Polish conditions of surrander and the fighting ended.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Edward; November 19th, 2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:39 PM   #60
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Same of examples of close cooperation below:
Kama Tank School was established in 1929 at Kazan, Soviet Union. The list of german officers trained there includes Ernst Volckheim, Werner von Blomberg, Walter Model, Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma, Heinz Guderian.
This school was also used to test German tank design by such companies as Krupp, Daimler and Rheinmetall. The school was closed in 1933 as the ideological gap between Nazi and Bolshevik was to big to be bridged at that time.

The Lipetsk Fighter Pilot School in Soviet Union was operating from 1926 to 1933. It was a training centre for German pilots. 120 Luftwaffe pilots were trained there


Secret bases Nord –Secret German Navy Base in Soviet Union
Basis_Nord Basis_Nord
The base lost its significance after Invasion of Norway. I read somewhere that the German destroyer flotilla destroyed in Narvik was due to replenishment in this base as they run low in fuel.
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