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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #61

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That was actually 1919-1921 Polish -Bolshevik war aim. Poland entered alliance with Ukrainian fraction (could we call it Government?)of ataman Petlura and started Kiev Offensive together with Ukrainian Army. Treaty of Warsaw (1920) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Due to Bolshevik counteroffensive and lukewarm Ukrainian support for Ataman Petlura the plan was untenable and was scrapped. Most of Ukraine falls under Soviet Russia control after peace of Riga 1921.

You think Poles would gave Western Ukraine to Ukraine if operation was successful?

Also given that Western Ukrainians are only Ukrainians who actually consider themselves independent ethnicity while Eastern Ukrainians consider themselves to be Russians, or Small Russians to be precise, I do not see prospect of Polish-Ukrainian relations getting any better at the end. Those are areas around Lvov which are actually core of Ukrainian nationalism.

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The remaining smaller parts were under Polish and Czechoslovakia (Carpathian Rus). Czechoslovakia also refused to give autonomy to their part of Ukraine, any indenpendence movement was unacceptable for Prague and was crushed by central government. So we can say that Ukrainians get a very rough ride from all neighbors. The Romunian-Ukrainian relations in Bessarabia was not a rosy affairs also.

Except people who live in Carpato-Ukraine does not always identify themselves as Ukrainians. They certainly did not in Czechoslovakia. They call themselves Rusíni, as opposed to Ukrainci and as long as I know, there is actually debate going on inside Ukraine if they are part of Ukrainians or not. Back then in Czechoslovakia as in Slovakia today, they are recognised as independent ethnicity. And they does not say no.

In any case, I am not aware that they would have demanded to be attached to Ukraine. There was some declaration of attachment of Caprato-Ukraine to Hungary by somebody who if I remember right was of Rusin ethnicity but I do not think he had some popular support of Rusins behind him. They were not been treated better in Austro-Hunhary than Slovaks.

There is even wikipedia entry about some ethnical problems regarding Carpato-Ukraine inside Ukraine: Ruthenians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #62
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Same of examples of close cooperation below:
Kama Tank School was established in 1929 at Kazan, Soviet Union. The list of german officers trained there includes Ernst Volckheim, Werner von Blomberg, Walter Model, Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma, Heinz Guderian.
This school was also used to test German tank design by such companies as Krupp, Daimler and Rheinmetall. The school was closed in 1933 as the ideological gap between Nazi and Bolshevik was to big to be bridged at that time.

The Lipetsk Fighter Pilot School in Soviet Union was operating from 1926 to 1933. It was a training centre for German pilots. 120 Luftwaffe pilots were trained there


Secret bases Nord –Secret German Navy Base in Soviet Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord
The base lost its significance after Invasion of Norway. I read somewhere that the German destroyer flotilla destroyed in Narvik was due to replenishment in this base as they run low in fuel.
An excellent illustrative example indeed, as the Lipetsk Fighter Pilot School actually predated the III Reich for seven years and the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact for thirteen years...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #63

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Regarding Ruthenians of Carpatian-Ukraine, here are some data from 1918-1919:

31.10.1918 - breakup of Austro-Hungary of which Carpato-Ukraine was part of.

november 1918 - january 1919 several national councils of Ruthenians were found, each demanding attachment of Carpato-Rutenia to different country (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia).

12.11.1918 - Ruthenian National Council in USA demands attachement to Czechoslovakia.

24.11.1918 - Ruthenians in Voivodina declare attachement to Yugoslavia.

5.12.1918 - Lemko Republic is declared headed by Jaroslav Kačmarčik. Cease to exist in march 1920.

21.12.1918 - Hungary creates Ruthenian autonomous region in Mukacevo with Oreszt Szabo in the head.

8.5.1919 - Central National Council of Ruthenians in Uzhorod vote for attachment of Carpato-Ruthenia to Czechoslovakia.

10.9.1919 - St. Germain agreement attaches Carpato-Ukraine to Czechoslovakia with guarantees of wide autonomy, as wide as unity of country permits.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #64
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An excellent illustrative example indeed, as the Lipetsk Fighter Pilot School actually predated the III Reich for seven years and the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact for thirteen years...
Pleas note the thread title" Russia helps Germany".
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #65

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Same of examples of close cooperation below:
Kama Tank School was established in 1929 at Kazan, Soviet Union. The list of german officers trained there includes Ernst Volckheim, Werner von Blomberg, Walter Model, Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma, Heinz Guderian.
This school was also used to test German tank design by such companies as Krupp, Daimler and Rheinmetall. The school was closed in 1933 as the ideological gap between Nazi and Bolshevik was to big to be bridged at that time.

The Lipetsk Fighter Pilot School in Soviet Union was operating from 1926 to 1933. It was a training centre for German pilots. 120 Luftwaffe pilots were trained there
You realise these were open before Nazi came to power and were closed down once they did?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #66
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You think Poles would gave Western Ukraine to Ukraine if operation was successful?

Also given that Western Ukrainians are only Ukrainians who actually consider themselves independent ethnicity while Eastern Ukrainians consider themselves to be Russians, or Small Russians to be precise, I do not see prospect of Polish-Ukrainian relations getting any better at the end. Those are areas around Lvov which are actually core of Ukrainian nationalism.


Except people who live in Carpato-Ukraine does not always identify themselves as Ukrainians. They certainly did not in Czechoslovakia. They call themselves Rusíni, as opposed to Ukrainci and as long as I know, there is actually debate going on inside Ukraine if they are part of Ukrainians or not. Back then in Czechoslovakia as in Slovakia today, they are recognised as independent ethnicity. And they does not say no.

In any case, I am not aware that they would have demanded to be attached to Ukraine. There was some declaration of attachment of Caprato-Ukraine to Hungary by somebody who if I remember right was of Rusin ethnicity but I do not think he had some popular support of Rusins behind him. They were not been treated better in Austro-Hunhary than Slovaks.

There is even wikipedia entry about some ethnical problems regarding Carpato-Ukraine inside Ukraine: Ruthenians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During austro-Hungarian time, all ukrainian were called Rusins.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #67
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Pleas note the thread title" Russia helps Germany".
Please note the title asks for "Russian", not "Soviet" help.

But please note too that pointing out such irrelevant semantic details could be kind of pointless, right?

Anyhow, and in the same spirit:

Russian help for Germany (Prussia and other states) happened as early as 1806 in the War of the IV Coalition.

And Russia is still helping Germany on the Nord Stream gas pipeline project.

There's nothing new under the Sun.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #68

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During austro-Hungarian time, all ukrainian were called Rusins.
That does not change fact, that inhabitants of Carpato-Ukraine call themselves Ruthenians and not Ukrainians. Not just that but they consider themselves to be different ethnicity. At last many of them.

Bye the way, does not Poles call them Lemko?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #69

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That does not change fact, that inhabitants of Carpato-Ukraine call themselves Ruthenians and not Ukrainians. Not just that but they consider themselves to be different ethnicity. At last many of them.

Bye the way, does not Poles call them Lemko?
Łemkowie in Polish, Lemkos in English

Lemkos Lemkos
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Old November 19th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #70
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That does not change fact, that inhabitants of Carpato-Ukraine call themselves Ruthenians and not Ukrainians. Not just that but they consider themselves to be different ethnicity. At last many of them.

Bye the way, does not Poles call them Lemko?
I think that they were called Lemks as a group but they were called Ukrainians as a nation.They speaks Ukrainian languages, hawever the influence of Slovakian is clearly visable.
Read about Carpathian Sich- they considered themself Ukrainians. The very word "Sich" is a name of old Cossakcs capital. They have been Ukrainian by any standard, Arras.
Carpathian_Sich Carpathian_Sich
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