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Old November 19th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #71
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Just going back to OP,

“After a long period of negotiations between Germany and the Soviet Union, the Soviets agreed to provide Germany with access to the Northern Sea Route through which Germany could access both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Although the two countries had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (with secret protocols dividing eastern Europe) and an undisclosed German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940) (extensive military and civilian aid pact), the Soviet Union still wished to maintain the veneer of being neutral, and thus, secrecy was required. Initially, the two countries had agreed to send 26 ships, including four armed merchant cruisers, but because of a variety of difficulties, this was soon reduced to one vessel, the Komet. “



German_auxiliary_cruiser_Komet German_auxiliary_cruiser_Komet
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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #72

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It is interesting for me to note that despite all these well-known and easily verifiable facts, most people still are not convinced that it was both Germany and the Soviet Union that started WWII in Europe.
The Soviet Union did not attack Poland first, they merely enabled Hitler to have a free hand. When the USSR attacked Poland the Polish army had all but ceased to exist as a coherent fighting force. It became essentially a land grab. Same with the Baltic states and the Winter War.

I think Stalin was paranoid about his border security. Not without good reason either. I can definitely agree Stalin enabled Hitler in many ways.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #73
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Just going back to OP,

“After a long period of negotiations between Germany and the Soviet Union, the Soviets agreed to provide Germany with access to the Northern Sea Route through which Germany could access both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Although the two countries had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (with secret protocols dividing eastern Europe) and an undisclosed German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940) (extensive military and civilian aid pact), the Soviet Union still wished to maintain the veneer of being neutral, and thus, secrecy was required. Initially, the two countries had agreed to send 26 ships, including four armed merchant cruisers, but because of a variety of difficulties, this was soon reduced to one vessel, the Komet. “



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Komet
We have already been here.

No act of war of the Soviet forces against the Western Allies was described here.

Strictly speaking and as rightly described above, it was just the passage of a single German ship through Soviet waters as part of a commercial agreement, BTW well away of the combat zone.

And as it was rightly explained, the Soviets did it for money.

Last edited by sylla1; November 19th, 2012 at 08:45 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mangas Coloradas View Post
The Soviet Union did not attack Poland first, they merely enabled Hitler to have a free hand. When the USSR attacked Poland the Polish army had all but ceased to exist as a coherent fighting force. It became essentially a land grab. Same with the Baltic states and the Winter War.

I think Stalin was paranoid about his border security. Not without good reason either. I can definitely agree Stalin enabled Hitler in many ways.
A most relevant point.
The III Reich crushed the Polish army alone with a swift Blitzkrieg attack.
The USSR attacked the already defeated Poland to guarantee its possession of the promised territory against the powerful III Reich.
That the distrust of Uncle Joe was hardly pure paranoia is clear from the fact that a readjustment or the terms of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact were actually required.
The III Reich ceded its original claims over Lithuania for a larger portion of Poland (already occupied).
The opportunistic Soviet invasion was hardly any help for the Germans; au contraire, it limited their advance over Polish territory.
In fact, some areas of Poland already occupied by the Wehrmacht were actually ceded to the Red Army.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:08 PM   #75
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We have already been here.

No act of war of the Soviet forces against the Western Allies was described here.

Strictly speaking and as rightly described above, it was just the passage of a single German ship through Soviet waters as part of a commercial agreement, BTW well away of the combat zone.
Incidentally, she was armed with 6 x150mm 1x75mm naval guns plus 4x20mm and 1x37mm antiaircraft guns. 6x533mm torpedo tubes and 30xEMC mines.
She also carried Arado reconesance planes. She sunk ships as below.
  • 1940-11-25 Holmwood 546 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Vinni 5,181 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Komata 3,900 GRT
  • 1941-08-14 Australind 5,020 GRT
  • 1941-08-17 Kota Nopan 7,322 GRT (captured)
  • 1941-08-19 Devon 9,036 GRT
Sunk together with Orion
  • 1940-11-27 RMS Rangitane 16,712 GRT
  • 1940-12-06 Triona 4,413 GRT
Haw long was Comet on “neutral” Soviet water? She was never interned.

Qte; “Neutrality restrictions limited Admiral Graf Spee to a period of 72 hours in Montevideo before she would be interned for the duration of the war.
On 17 December 1939, Langsdorff ordered the destruction of all important equipment aboard the ship. The ship's remaining ammunition supply was dispersed throughout the ship in preparation for scuttling. On 18 December, the ship, with only Langsdorff and 40 other men aboard, steamed into the outer roadstead to be scuttled. A crowd of 20,000 watched as the scuttling charges were set; the crew was taken off by an Argentine tug and the ship was sunk at 20:55. The explosions from the munitions sent jets of flame high into the air and created a large cloud of smoke that obscured the ship”




Qte“At the beginning of the invasion of Poland Orzeł had been deployed on patrol in a designated strategic zone of the Baltic Sea. Due to the German invasion, Orzeł was unable to return to the Polish naval bases at Hel near the major port city of Gdynia.
Orzel's crew decided to head to Tallinn, Estonia as a result of an unidentified illness from which their captain, Lieutenant-Commander Henryk Kłoczkowski, had been suffering since September 8. ORP Orzeł reached Tallinn on 14 September 1939 and on 15 September the captain was forced to leave the submarine to undergo hospital treatment. Under the Hague Convention of 1907, section XIII, Article 12, "belligerent ships" could enter a neutral port but were forbidden from remaining there for "more than twenty-four hours." At the insistence of Germany, the Estonian military authorities boarded the ship, interned the crew, confiscated all the navigation aids and maps, and commenced removing all her armaments. However, only fifteen of her twenty torpedoes were removed before the hoist cable parted; this was because it had been secretly sabotaged by her new commander, former chief officer, Lieutenant Jan Grudzinski.”

Qte “The escape of the submarine Orzeł was used by the Soviet Union and Germany to challenge Estonian neutrality.”

Last edited by Edward; November 19th, 2012 at 08:37 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #76
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Incidentally, she was armed with 6 x150mm 1x75mm naval guns plus 4x20mm and 1x37mm antiaircraft guns. 6x533mm torpedo tubes and 30xEMC mines.
She also carried Arado reconesance planes. She sunk ships as below.
  • 1940-11-25 Holmwood 546 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Vinni 5,181 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Komata 3,900 GRT
  • 1941-08-14 Australind 5,020 GRT
  • 1941-08-17 Kota Nopan 7,322 GRT (captured)
  • 1941-08-19 Devon 9,036 GRT
Sunk together with Orion
  • 1940-11-27 RMS Rangitane 16,712 GRT
  • 1940-12-06 Triona 4,413 GRT
It was a German warship, I get your point.

But it was not an act of war of the Soviet Union against the Western Allies.

It didn't make the USSR and the UK contenders.

In spite of the fact that the UK (and France) had actually sent military help for Finland, which was actually used to kill Soviet soldiers during the Winter War (and also later during the Continuation War).

In spite of those hardly friendly actions from both sides, the UK & the USSR didn't get to the hands, for reasons that I find pretty obvious.
Wouldn't you?

In the same way that the III Reich and the Soviets didn't get to the hands for the unrequired Soviet occupation of Polish territory.


That's exactly why the Soviet Union was not allied with any side from September 1939 to June 1941.
It was its own side, always ready to profit from the clash of the titans by attacking minor nations, largely recovering the historical Russian territory lost after WW1.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #77
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Qte; “Neutrality restrictions limited Admiral Graf Spee to a period of 72 hours in Montevideo before she would be interned for the duration of the war.
On 17 December 1939, Langsdorff ordered the destruction of all important equipment aboard the ship. The ship's remaining ammunition supply was dispersed throughout the ship in preparation for scuttling. On 18 December, the ship, with only Langsdorff and 40 other men aboard, steamed into the outer roadstead to be scuttled. A crowd of 20,000 watched as the scuttling charges were set; the crew was taken off by an Argentine tug and the ship was sunk at 20:55. The explosions from the munitions sent jets of flame high into the air and created a large cloud of smoke that obscured the ship”




Qte“At the beginning of the invasion of Poland Orzeł had been deployed on patrol in a designated strategic zone of the Baltic Sea. Due to the German invasion, Orzeł was unable to return to the Polish naval bases at Hel near the major port city of Gdynia.
Orzel's crew decided to head to Tallinn, Estonia as a result of an unidentified illness from which their captain, Lieutenant-Commander Henryk Kłoczkowski, had been suffering since September 8. ORP Orzeł reached Tallinn on 14 September 1939 and on 15 September the captain was forced to leave the submarine to undergo hospital treatment. Under the Hague Convention of 1907, section XIII, Article 12, "belligerent ships" could enter a neutral port but were forbidden from remaining there for "more than twenty-four hours." At the insistence of Germany, the Estonian military authorities boarded the ship, interned the crew, confiscated all the navigation aids and maps, and commenced removing all her armaments. However, only fifteen of her twenty torpedoes were removed before the hoist cable parted; this was because it had been secretly sabotaged by her new commander, former chief officer, Lieutenant Jan Grudzinski.”

Qte “The escape of the submarine Orzeł was used by the Soviet Union and Germany to challenge Estonian neutrality.”
And not just of Estonia; the Orzel incident was the main excuse eventually used by the Soviets to occupy the three Baltic Republics.

But the Soviet Union challenged the neutrality of Estonia entirely on its own, independently, without any German help.

BTW, how exactly did the III Reich "challenge" the neutrality of Estonia at the time???



Exactly like the case of Finland, where the government actually asked for help even to the III Reich.

Germany never helped the Soviet Union in that or any other war.

Last edited by sylla1; November 19th, 2012 at 08:55 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:06 PM   #78
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And not just of Estonia; the Orzel incident was the main excuse eventually used by the Soviets to occupy the three Baltic Republics.

But the Soviet Union challenged the neutrality of Estonia entirely on its own, independently, without any German help.

BTW, how exactly did the III Reich "challenge" the neutrality of Estonia at the time???



Exactly like the case of Finland, where the government actually asked for help even to the III Reich.

Germany never helped the Soviet Union in that or any other war.
this is not part of OP and is irrelevant,. But I can tell you that germany challanged Estonian neutrality diplomatically.
The fact is that by allowing Comet to pass through terittorial water, Soviet broken the neutrality act.

Funny, they use the same act to challenged Estonian neutrality.

Stick to OP,please. the example of Orzel and Graf Spee are only here to show you the international low application in case of entering terittorial water by warsip of billigerent country.
the same apply to soldiers entering neutral state. Full stop.

Last edited by Edward; November 19th, 2012 at 09:11 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #79
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Incidentally, she was armed with 6 x150mm 1x75mm naval guns plus 4x20mm and 1x37mm antiaircraft guns. 6x533mm torpedo tubes and 30xEMC mines.
She also carried Arado reconesance planes. She sunk ships as below.
  • 1940-11-25 Holmwood 546 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Vinni 5,181 GRT
  • 1940-12-07 Komata 3,900 GRT
  • 1941-08-14 Australind 5,020 GRT
  • 1941-08-17 Kota Nopan 7,322 GRT (captured)
  • 1941-08-19 Devon 9,036 GRT
Sunk together with Orion
  • 1940-11-27 RMS Rangitane 16,712 GRT
  • 1940-12-06 Triona 4,413 GRT
Haw long was Comet on “neutral” Soviet water? She was never interned.

Qte; “Neutrality restrictions limited Admiral Graf Spee to a period of 72 hours in Montevideo before she would be interned for the duration of the war.
On 17 December 1939, Langsdorff ordered the destruction of all important equipment aboard the ship. The ship's remaining ammunition supply was dispersed throughout the ship in preparation for scuttling. On 18 December, the ship, with only Langsdorff and 40 other men aboard, steamed into the outer roadstead to be scuttled. A crowd of 20,000 watched as the scuttling charges were set; the crew was taken off by an Argentine tug and the ship was sunk at 20:55. The explosions from the munitions sent jets of flame high into the air and created a large cloud of smoke that obscured the ship”




Qte“At the beginning of the invasion of Poland Orzeł had been deployed on patrol in a designated strategic zone of the Baltic Sea. Due to the German invasion, Orzeł was unable to return to the Polish naval bases at Hel near the major port city of Gdynia.
Orzel's crew decided to head to Tallinn, Estonia as a result of an unidentified illness from which their captain, Lieutenant-Commander Henryk Kłoczkowski, had been suffering since September 8. ORP Orzeł reached Tallinn on 14 September 1939 and on 15 September the captain was forced to leave the submarine to undergo hospital treatment. Under the Hague Convention of 1907, section XIII, Article 12, "belligerent ships" could enter a neutral port but were forbidden from remaining there for "more than twenty-four hours." At the insistence of Germany, the Estonian military authorities boarded the ship, interned the crew, confiscated all the navigation aids and maps, and commenced removing all her armaments. However, only fifteen of her twenty torpedoes were removed before the hoist cable parted; this was because it had been secretly sabotaged by her new commander, former chief officer, Lieutenant Jan Grudzinski.”

Qte “The escape of the submarine Orzeł was used by the Soviet Union and Germany to challenge Estonian neutrality.”
THe obvious explanation would be that the remote Uruguay was more fearful of the Royal Navy than from the isolated Graf Spee alone.

Fear would be the obvious explanation too on why the HMS Cossack was not interned after attacking the German tanker Altmark (not any warship BTW) in neutral Norwegian waters.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #80
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THe obvious explanation would be that the remote Uruguay was more fearful of the Royal Navy than from the isolated Graf Spee alone.

Fear would be the obvious explanation too on why the HMS Cossack was not interned after attacking the German tanker Altmark (not any warship BTW) in neutral Norwegian waters.
  • Cossack entry into Norwegian waters was Justified (at least partly) because Altmark carried British sailors in her holds as war prisoners.
  • Altmark has no right to enter these waters in such case.
  • Norway was not in military position to stop and intern HMS Cossack or Altmark.
  • Soviet Union escorted Comet all the way along Siberian coast; assist her with icebreaker and with supply.
Is this enough for you? thank you very much for your learned posts.

Last edited by Edward; November 19th, 2012 at 10:53 PM.
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