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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #61

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Does anybody have knowledge of the panzerwaffe order of battle for France on an overall level. Interested to know how many MK IV C-D made up the ranks. Google has been fruitless so far...
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:48 AM   #62
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Well they certainly saw it as useful for gaining practical experience with their use...
I'm sure all experience was useful but due to the small scale of armored action, I'm not sure how valuable it would be other than providing a small number of combat experienced trainers

The Germans were to teach much more valuable lessons to the Red Army
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:52 AM   #63

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Does anybody have knowledge of the panzerwaffe order of battle for France on an overall level. Interested to know how many MK IV C-D made up the ranks. Google has been fruitless so far...
Production figured are 140 ausf C and 248 ausf D over their manufacturing run but i can't find a listing offhand of how many served in France and how many were back in training and reserve units.

With impeccable timing i can't find my Panzer 4 book
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:54 AM   #64
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Afghans were reported to use matchlocks against Russians in the Soviet-Afghan war. Muskets are not obsolete by your logic then.

Swiss guard still use pikes mind you.
I think the term obsolescent is a better word to describe the 2 Pdr gun in 1940 - it still could do a job but there was better technology available
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:00 AM   #65

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The meanings of the word 'obsolete' are as follows:

No longer in use or no longer of any use.

Neither meaning can be applied to the 2 pdr in 1940 or even the Fairey Swordfish in 1941

ps; The Fairey Swordfish remained operational in the anti-submarine warfare role until May 1945, sinking 27 U-Boats, the last in December 1944.
The Swordfish was declared obsolete by the Admiralty by about 1937 I believe. The only reason it was still in service was because our other designs could not be adapted to carry torps and no other bomber design was forthcoming. The crews going in against the Bismarck took some balls knowing that most would not survive.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:09 AM   #66

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Production figured are 140 ausf C and 248 ausf D over their manufacturing run but i can't find a listing offhand of how many served in France and how many were back in training and reserve units.

With impeccable timing i can't find my Panzer 4 book
Wish I still had my two autos' on Guderian and Rommel. Pretty sure that one or the other had a comprehensive tree listing from Armee level down to Divisional. From what I remember, most of the C models were withdrawn back to reserve, I think!!
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:11 AM   #67

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Does anybody have knowledge of the panzerwaffe order of battle for France on an overall level. Interested to know how many MK IV C-D made up the ranks. Google has been fruitless so far...
Try on these pages, may be there is something: Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf D
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:14 AM   #68

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I think the term obsolescent is a better word to describe the 2 Pdr gun in 1940 - it still could do a job but there was better technology available
Well may be. I have to say, I am not native English speaker so some finer nuances of language might allude me
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:20 AM   #69
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The Swordfish was declared obsolete by the Admiralty by about 1937 I believe. The only reason it was still in service was because our other designs could not be adapted to carry torps and no other bomber design was forthcoming. The crews going in against the Bismarck took some balls knowing that most would not survive.
I wasn't aware the Swordfish had been declared obsolete before the start of the war, and as stated it was used until 1945

The Swordfish's low take off speed meant it could take off without the carrier having to maneuver into the wind, this made it useful for the small MAC ships on convoy escort duty

I've seen it argued that the famous air strike on the Bismarck would not have been possible with later monoplanes and only the Swordfish was able to get airborne

They were able to find the Bismarck because they were equipped with airborne RADAR that the 'plane had pioneered...also I could be wrong about this but IIRC most 'planes returned to HMS Ark Royal
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #70

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I'm sure all experience was useful but due to the small scale of armored action, I'm not sure how valuable it would be other than providing a small number of combat experienced trainers

The Germans were to teach much more valuable lessons to the Red Army
It wasn't so small after all. And scale itself might not have been most important. It was useful for it was first time modern tanks were tried in battle. As were antitank guns. Some concepts were also tried out, like concentration of armour and armoured spearheads.

As for Germans they certainly did gave Soviets tankers some bloody schooling. However you also should look at what Soviets did in Chalkin-Gol. And that was actually before German attack on Poland (decisive battle happened on 20. August 1939).
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