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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #21

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Originally Posted by diddyriddick View Post
Precisely. If I'm Roosevelt and I want a war with Germany, provoking Japan would be a horrible way to do it. If I'm going to provoke anybody it's going to be Germany, and probably by instigating more Greer type incidents.
And I still hold to the rather simplistic view that starting a war with a naval power by letting them put most of your capital ships on the bottom is not a good option. Sheesh... every year.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #22
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Ah conspiracy..... Tomorrow is 7 December; perhaps another conspiracy theory will appeary.

How about, the British mounted the attack from four carriers we didn't know about:

HMS Invisible, HMS Improbable, HMS Impossible and HMS No-See-Um.....with Fairey Swordfish disguised as Zeros and Vals. (Really clever work, that.)

They knew that would get us into the war.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #23

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Ahh... thanks for the mention on that. I've heard of the conspiracy that FDR used Pearl Harbor as bait, but I've never seen anything that gave any real indication as to who invented it.

I think was possible that they could have, for the reasons you've mentioned (critcal of and wanting to discredit FDR), but I've never even seen anything that outright said who, or even when the conspiracy was generated. Thinking back on it... and my memory may be a bit hazy, but wasn't the conspiracy theory for this actually generated AFTER the war and FDR's death?
It was after the war, but not long afterwards. IIRC, it was Harry Barnes who first published on it.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #24

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Actually, this is a little bit misleading. With the notable exception of Pearl Harbor, the Americans knew pretty much precisely how the first 3 months of the war would unfold. If we look at the "Orange" warplans and subsequent "Rainbow 5" plans, nothing was a suprise except Pearl Harbor.
My apologies. I didn't mean to be. I was talking about the events up to PH attack, not what would come afterwards. War plan Orange never entered my mind. Everything i have read on the subject had painted a picture that military intelligence wasn't sure where the Japanese were going to strike. Aside from America's allies in the Pacific, for the US, Hawaii and the Philippines were on the top of the list, but they couldn't quite rule out the others either. The last of my post was only speculating on an "ideal time frame" for the internal sharing of intelligence and it's eventual dissemination with the intent to prevent.

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So the question then becomes, "Why weren't the local commanders (Admiral Husband E. Kimmel and Lt. General Walter Short ) warned, just in case?" In fact they were. In the famous "war warning" message of November 27, 1941, the CNO instructed Kimmel "Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days." He further ordered Kimmel to " Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46." Among the items specifically ordered were reconnaissance, yet the PBY patrol aircraft were caught on the apron at Ford Island. While I do believe that both Kimmel and Short were unfairly attacked for "dereliction of duty," they clearly had to bear a large part of the responsibility for the errors of Pearl Harbor.
Yes, this is very interesting. All US military posts in the Pacific and US West coast were warned of the possibility for war and not just Kimmel and Short on Hawaii. The Philippines is an interesting juxtaposition alongside that of Hawaii, whereas in Hawaii US leadership went looking for scapegoats but in the Philippines they found a hero, or according to his critics, the hero was busy promoting himself.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #25
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So the question then becomes, "Why weren't the local commanders (Admiral Husband E. Kimmel and Lt. General Walter Short ) warned, just in case?" In fact they were. In the famous "war warning" message of November 27, 1941, the CNO instructed Kimmel "Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days." He further ordered Kimmel to " Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46." Among the items specifically ordered were reconnaissance, yet the PBY patrol aircraft were caught on the apron at Ford Island. While I do believe that both Kimmel and Short were unfairly attacked for "dereliction of duty," they clearly had to bear a large part of the responsibility for the errors of Pearl Harbor.

Hard to figure the reactions of Kimmel and Short, especially after a war warning, general and vague as it was. While I agree that both should have been relieved of command for their lack of preparedness, I see a much greater lack of leadership in the P.I. under MacArthur.

Yet he is not only given a free pass on the initial attack, but is not held responsible for the multiple blunders of that campaign, also beginning Dec 7th (the 8th in Manilla because of the international dateline)
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #26

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So the question then becomes, "Why weren't the local commanders (Admiral Husband E. Kimmel and Lt. General Walter Short ) warned, just in case?" In fact they were. In the famous "war warning" message of November 27, 1941, the CNO instructed Kimmel "Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days." He further ordered Kimmel to " Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46." Among the items specifically ordered were reconnaissance, yet the PBY patrol aircraft were caught on the apron at Ford Island. While I do believe that both Kimmel and Short were unfairly attacked for "dereliction of duty," they clearly had to bear a large part of the responsibility for the errors of Pearl Harbor.

Hard to figure the reactions of Kimmel and Short, especially after a war warning, general and vague as it was. While I agree that both should have been relieved of command for their lack of preparedness, I see a much greater lack of leadership in the P.I. under MacArthur.

Yet he is not only given a free pass on the initial attack, but is not held responsible for the multiple blunders of that campaign, also beginning Dec 7th (the 8th in Manilla because of the international dateline)
I couldn't agree more on the MacArthur assessment. War warnings aside, Kimmel and Short didn't know that a state of war existed till the bombs were falling on battleship row. MacArthur knew for hours of the PH attack and was STILL caught with his pants down. His failure was far greater than either Short or Kimmel. And there was that problem on the Yalu 10 years later.

Quite possibly the most overrated military man in American history. And that's a tall order.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #27

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The Philippines (well, Bataan, anyway) held for a few months. During this time MacArthur sent numerous dispatches from the "front" detailing mythical Japanese attacks and American victories, every one mentioning MacArthur and usually only MacArthur. By the time the fall was imminent MacArthur had transformed himself into a hero, and in those dark days a PR boost. That's why he was ordered out and given a Medal of Honor for conducting a debacle.
General Kenney (later Mac's leader of the 5th Air Force) awarded MacArthur an Air Medal for observing an uncontested parachute drop.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diddyriddick View Post
I couldn't agree more on the MacArthur assessment. War warnings aside, Kimmel and Short didn't know that a state of war existed till the bombs were falling on battleship row. MacArthur knew for hours of the PH attack and was STILL caught with his pants down. His failure was far greater than either Short or Kimmel. And there was that problem on the Yalu 10 years later.

Quite possibly the most overrated military man in American history. And that's a tall order.
So true.... never substitute ego for intelligence. Theyre mutually exclusive
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Old December 6th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #29
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What will be the point for Roosevelt to do so? I’m not a big fan of him, but I could not see any reason for not warning US military about incoming attack, if he knew this beforehand.
Yes, he understood the need of US involvement in WWII sooner rather than later, but any attack on Pearl Harbour even unsuccessful for Japanese, will be serious enough to guarantee US military response.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #30
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Roosevelt was already crossing swords with Germany prior to the Pearl Harbor attack with the "Neutrality Patrols", escorting merchant vessels carrying supplies to England. the US lost the destroyer USS Ruben James to a U boat attack near the end of October 1941.
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