Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > War and Military History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

War and Military History War and Military History Forum - Warfare, Tactics, and Military Technology over the centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 11th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #21

funakison's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 2,839
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
It's hard to gain an accurate estimate on such a question, since being Catholic was technically illegal or highly disadvantageous to publically boast about. But some studies seem to suggest as late as the early 17th century the majority of the population was still Catholic.
I think your estimation of the number of English Catholics is a bit off,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
If they had landed, yes, I think they would have succeeded. Alexander Farnese was an excellent soldier, probably the best of his age, and his army were all veterans. It would not have been easy for him to subdue the nations, but I think given the time and support he could have.

But that is a big if. Getting across the waters to Britain is the major obstacle for any invasion.
I agree that the Spanish had both experienced troops and an excellent commander and that any English field army would have faced a severe mauling. But to subjugate a foreign country means occupying, and garrisoning and supplying . With the Scots likely to raid and help English rebels the Spanish might have struggled to maintain order.
funakison is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 11th, 2012, 01:54 AM   #22

dagul's Avatar
Rabbit of Wormhole
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: In the bag of ecstatic squirt
Posts: 9,277

^Yes, assuming that the Spaniards were able to land in England, the trouble is how are they going to contain the insurrection of the English Protestants that shall be augmented by the Scottish forces?

I imagined what kind of British Empire will it be had they turned out to be Catholics.
dagul is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 03:05 AM   #23

Mangekyou's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: UK
Posts: 5,810
Blog Entries: 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by funakison View Post
I agree that the Spanish had both experienced troops and an excellent commander and that any English field army would have faced a severe mauling. But to subjugate a foreign country means occupying, and garrisoning and supplying . With the Scots likely to raid and help English rebels the Spanish might have struggled to maintain order.
I think the English armies could have fought well. The problm is, the best of the English troops and the best commanders were serving in Holland under Maurice of Nassau. If they were still in England, led by the de Vere brothers, then even Farnese would have found it hard. He faced these guys in Holland, and they were quite capable of defeating Spanish veteran troops.

Yes, I think it would be hard. There are a couple of things to consider though. If the Spanish fleet are able to control and penetrate the channel at will, then suport could keep flowing in. I dont think this would be easy, because the English composed a sizable and veteran force for the Dutch, so they would surely try and help, but the Spanish still had strong fleets at this period, which were defeating English and Dutch fleets on a regular basis.

The second thing to consider, is that the catholic presence was not redundant. It was just oppressed. The wars of religion were obviously the priorities during this period. Alexander Farnese had tactful, diplomatic skills, and he was already accomplished at sowing discord between catholic annd protetant populations, when he did so between the Flemish and Wallonons, and also gained the support of the "malcontents" (Catholics). With the situation in England not be completely stable, over religious matters, there is a potential to start discord and perhaps a civil war to aid his own army.

So no, it wont be easy at all, but with his abilities and the unstable situation both militarily and religiously, then a success is more likely than a defeat..
Mangekyou is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 04:33 AM   #24

Essa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Bahrain
Posts: 1,629

I believe it would've been a major turning event....

The British victory itself was described by many sources as fortunate, given the severe whether conditions faced by the Spanish (even English sources)...So the possibilty that the Spanish taking control of England is there....

Thinking of the consequences is where I derive my opinion....

A Spanish victory would could:

- Open the door for more Spanish control of the seas, and especially to America.

- Resistance from England itself may develop into a civil war with the Spanish likely to support the Catholic side.

- The Spanish invasion itself is a holy war (supported by the Church), and with a proposed victory, that will give Spain even more leverage and prominance in the Continent.

- If things don't persist to the advantage of the Spanish, then at least the turbulences caused will cripple England and delay her involvement and evolution into a supreme sea power...in favour of the French !

I think that in later centuries where England had a clear advantage in seamanship....the gap between Engalnd and France that was felt mostly during the Napoleonic wars wouldn't be that large OR the French would have been better....In due process, the French would've find it easier to approach Spain in later dacades (under a supposed scenario of a subdued England), since it grew large enough and only had land borders with Spain...
Essa is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 04:39 AM   #25

Halomanuk2's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2012
From: Flitwick,Bedfordshire,UK
Posts: 221

The Spanish had the means certainly to mount a foray into England but resistance would have been high from the Protestant English and the main army itself x the Spanish would have to have a very large invading force all landing at the same time to stand any chance but once the Armada had wiped out the English fleet that could have been a high possibility.

It was paramount that they were stopped.
Halomanuk2 is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 04:49 AM   #26

Linschoten's Avatar
nonpareil
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wessex
Posts: 9,513
Blog Entries: 11

It's good to see you back!
Linschoten is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #27

Belloc's Avatar
Historical Sociologist
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: USA
Posts: 4,932

Quote:
Originally Posted by funakison View Post
I think your estimation of the number of English Catholics is a bit off
In what way exactly?
Belloc is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #28

funakison's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 2,839
Blog Entries: 1

Its a tricky old subject to be sure, at one end of the scale we have Spanish domination of western europe, the collapse of the dutch revolt and a Catholic France without Henri of Navarre, at the other end we have an English civil war with Scottish help for the protestants, continuing Dutch resistance and a bankpupt Spain allowing Henri of Navarre to take the French throne.
Maybe its just as well that`God blew and the Spanish were scattered`
funakison is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #29

Sicknero's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Here to Eternity
Posts: 4,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
In what way exactly?
I've read different estimates of what proportion of the English population were Catholic at the time, with a greater representation among the upper classes.

But of course the nature of the times meant that even devout Catholics might be reluctant to admit to it. Even so I personally tend to the belief that Phillip was completely misled as to the amount of support he could have expected had his army successfully landed in England.
Sicknero is offline  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #30

Belloc's Avatar
Historical Sociologist
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: USA
Posts: 4,932

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
I've read different estimates of what proportion of the English population were Catholic at the time, with a greater representation among the upper classes.

But of course the nature of the times meant that even devout Catholics might be reluctant to admit to it. Even so I personally tend to the belief that Phillip was completely misled as to the amount of support he could have expected had his army successfully landed in England.
Indeed, I don't recall making any definitive estimate about how many Catholics there were at the time, I even admitted that it's difficult to accurately do so. I guess he's referring to studies I mention which might suggest a Catholic majority as late as the 17th century.

Even if so(ie a Catholic majority), whether that translates into direct support for a foreign power is another issue.

Last edited by Belloc; December 11th, 2012 at 11:56 AM.
Belloc is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > War and Military History

Tags
1588, england, spanish, subdued


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The worst King of England and the best kings of England ? Nicklord1 Medieval and Byzantine History 132 March 8th, 2014 09:48 AM
Nova Anglia - New England .the England of the East. ANAX Medieval and Byzantine History 13 December 26th, 2012 04:05 PM
1588: Invasion Imminent! Richard Stanbery European History 10 January 2nd, 2012 02:37 AM
English Navy 1588 Vs British Navy(2005) Whiggamore Speculative History 42 November 10th, 2011 06:32 AM
England's fleet, 1588 corndog36 War and Military History 59 May 21st, 2011 09:33 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.