Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > War and Military History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

War and Military History War and Military History Forum - Warfare, Tactics, and Military Technology over the centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 17th, 2013, 01:24 PM   #141

Underlankers's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,700

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synorbs View Post
He really was a divisive spiteful little git (even looks like a rat). It's glossed over by UK historians for the most part because we needed to have someone to hang our hat on so to speak. However he was power hungry, greedy, discordant, but with the strange addition of being all too cautious. The damning that he got for that lead to the only real attacking move he made at Market Garden and we all know how that went.

Although he did have victories, the main ones are all in a theatre of war the Germans regarded as their third most important (if that). To which about only a 1/4 of the minimum needed supplies ever got to (especially fuel), thanks to our wonderful navy and RAF. Furthermore being bogged down by allies such as the Italians, which is of course why they were there in the first place. Quite a strange irony that a supposedly annoying situation with an ally actually presented the Germans 1. with a hero being made (great propogande) and 2. a situation they never fully appreciated the potential of but Rommel did.

Whilst we were bolstered by about three times the number of everything and we ended up with the Americans pressing in on the other side. If the Germans has taken this theatre seriously, and for sake of argument not invaded the USSR for a year or two (I KNOW I KNOW) then they could have blown us out of Africa taken all the oil they needed from the region to fully then go on and conquer the soviets. Probably post having forced us to the negotiating table. Then a pincer thrust up into the Russian underbelly alongside now modified Barbarosa plans, with fuel to spare, wouldn't have been stoppable. It's amazingly lucky this wasn't seen my Mr Hitler.

You are right though, compared to the others he doesn't deserve to be on here. He'd be more appropriate in a list of "People who simply got lucky as there was no one else in line and because he had a huge advantage in men, machines and material." If Gott who by most accounts was far better suited than Montey hadn't had an unfortunate accident involving a plane, or if Auchinleck and Monty were switched round as it were Monty would have been pilloried for being far too conservative and taking a beating from this "Rommel fellow" as we know he'd simply have retreated and then been replaced himself.

Moreover with an army that low on moral there's nowhere to go but up. There are a lot of accounts and sources of your every day soldier saying he managed to change moral to a certain extent. It wouldn't exactly have been hard considering.

The one thing i'd perhaps be made to tip my hat to would be some of the work concerning Overlord. However he even managed to be as uncooperative as usual in the end and to be frank the Germans made a huge botch of defending OL.
Eh, I believe his win record is consistent enough and his strategic vision sound enough that he's not a qualification for this list. An overrated list? Yes, by an order of magnitude. Worst generals ever? He wasn't even the worst British general of WWII by a long shot (see: Percival, Wavell, the Auk).

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
All this is true, but Monty didn't just seek to undermine his American superiors, he sought to undermine all his superiors (with the noteable exception of his mentor Alanbrooke), and he was almost drummed out of the army a number of times, even pre-war, for his insubordination, only his clear abilities prevented it.

ps: It should also be noted that most senior American generals (Bradley, Patton and Clark) with the noteable exception of Ike, also had no time for the coalition aspect of the coalition war, and also did everthing in their power to undermine it.
That's true. And I'd certainly agree that the coalition warfare problem was Anglo-American. But Monty's skills are sufficient that he doesn't deserve a ranking on Worst-Generals list. Percival, MacArthur, Voroshilov, Mekhlis, Kuznetsov.....they do.
Underlankers is offline  
Remove Ads
Old June 17th, 2013, 01:45 PM   #142

Masamune Date's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Jun 2013
From: Netherlands
Posts: 15

Marcus Licinius Crassus
Masamune Date is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 04:42 PM   #143

Sam-Nary's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: At present SD, USA
Posts: 6,102

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperorTigerstar View Post
I don't know about THE worst, but McClellan comes to mind.
He was probably among the worst as a combat commander, but without his training, the Army of the Potomac might have never recovered from First Bull Run.
Sam-Nary is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 08:07 PM   #144
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: SF bay area
Posts: 1,266

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
It should also be noted that most senior American generals (Bradley, Patton and Clark) with the noteable exception of Ike, also had no time for the coalition aspect of the coalition war, and also did everthing in their power to undermine it.
What leads you to include Bradley in that category?
Dzung is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #145

Spartacuss's Avatar
mmmmph! mmmMMMMmmph!!
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 7,572

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzung View Post
What leads you to include Bradley in that category?
Or Patton, really, for that matter. This will be interesting.
Spartacuss is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #146
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: SF bay area
Posts: 1,266

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
Or Patton, really, for that matter. This will be interesting.
Patton was as arrogant as Montgomery and at least as undiplomatic. He frequently went out of his way to insult the British. He was relieved of his command right after the war ended for flapping his mouth one time too many.

I will never understand why Marshall gave him a command in August of 44. They knew he was going to be trouble, and he was. Bradley was opposed to having him under his command, but of course after Patton was appointed commander of Third Army, Bradley never said anything about it again, until May of 45 when Patton was sacked for repeated public insults and baiting of the Russians. He had been skating on thin ice for the previous nine months over his insulting the Britts. And he had sat out the year before that without a command for his unpolitic behavior in Sicily.
Dzung is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #147

tornada's Avatar
Wind Lord
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: India
Posts: 15,001
Blog Entries: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune Date View Post
Marcus Licinius Crassus
Well he did defeat Spartacus so i do not think he is the worst in the world. He underestimated the Parthians, is true, but even Mark Antony did that and had to retreat from Armenia. It is still my contention that Varus deserves this epitaph since he had NO victories that i can find and he made error after error in his Germanic expedition
tornada is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #148
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: SF bay area
Posts: 1,266

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
Oddly, the commander of the 7th Armored at St Vith disagree's with you, in his own words " Monty saved the 7th Armored".
Where did you run across that? I've read several versions of that battle and have never heard anything like that.

I will say that Wikipedia has a version of St Vith that is different from anything I've read before (Toland, De Este and others), that version's source is: A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge - Charles Brown MacDonald - I've ordered it and will give it a read.

The only place Google finds that quote is your post here on Historium.
Dzung is offline  
Old June 17th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #149

Masamune Date's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Jun 2013
From: Netherlands
Posts: 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by tornada View Post
Well he did defeat Spartacus so i do not think he is the worst in the world. He underestimated the Parthians, is true, but even Mark Antony did that and had to retreat from Armenia. It is still my contention that Varus deserves this epitaph since he had NO victories that i can find and he made error after error in his Germanic expedition
Hehe I totally forgot about his victory over Spartacus. But wasn't Pompeius the one who claimed the victory? And I have to say that he needed 8 legions to crush them and Spartacus army was a little bit torn apart because of the crushing defeat of Crixus, who took a lot of slaves with him.

And I was astonished by his defeat at Carrhae, he acted reallly irresponsible and ignorant there. A general can not afford to act that way...
Masamune Date is offline  
Old June 18th, 2013, 01:54 AM   #150
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: London
Posts: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underlankers View Post
Eh, I believe his win record is consistent enough and his strategic vision sound enough that he's not a qualification for this list. An overrated list? Yes, by an order of magnitude. Worst generals ever? He wasn't even the worst British general of WWII by a long shot (see: Percival, Wavell, the Auk).



That's true. And I'd certainly agree that the coalition warfare problem was Anglo-American. But Monty's skills are sufficient that he doesn't deserve a ranking on Worst-Generals list. Percival, MacArthur, Voroshilov, Mekhlis, Kuznetsov.....they do.
If you read the comment you'd see i agreed he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Least we can agree on the material being the making of the man, eh ;D
Synorbs is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > War and Military History

Tags
general, worst



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is the worst battle of your favorite General? DS1967 War and Military History 45 July 7th, 2013 02:59 AM
Best and worst Queen's in history henry7 Speculative History 28 July 2nd, 2012 05:20 PM
Best and/or Worst Last Words in History Tuatha De Danann General History 25 June 20th, 2011 08:54 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.