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Old June 25th, 2013, 03:06 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
There was no oil in Germany, but there was in Romania. Germany got most, if not all, of its oil from the oil fields at Ploesti during the war. But having oil is of minor importance to El Alamein because of the geography.

Rommel had won all of his prior battles by going around an unprotected flank and surprising it. This is partially why the supply issue comes up so often. People think that had he more oil and bullets, he would have gotten through. There is one problem with that theory... at El Alamein, there was no open flank to hit. Monty's line was anchored by the Mediterranean in the north and a massive depression in the south. The only way Rommel could have won there would be to attack and somehow inflict more casualties on the British than they did on him...

To do that, Rommel needed German reinforcements to do the job. He needed men, tanks, and guns. And while some ammunition might go to him, NONE of that was in the offering for him... because at the same time, Hitler has committed Germany's last reserves on the Eastern Front to take Stalingrad and win the Baku oil fields for the Third Reich from the Soviet Union. Rommel may have been promised reinforcements, but there was no realistic way they were going to arrive until AFTER the Battle of Stalingrad is finished, and when that battle ends as a decisive Soviet victory... it's a moot point.



While luck plays a role in every general's career, the odds were stacked in Monty's favor. Thanks to enigma, he knew the general size of Rommel's forces and knew their condition. And knowing that he held a bottleneck that Rommel couldn't go around, he knew that so long as he had more men and more supplies (which the British generally did in Africa) it was unlikely that any additional support that Rommel received would do much to defeat Monty.
Agree in the end with most of what you say. The bottleneck + enigma meant that unless the German navy could swim their unis around to our rear they couldn't go anywhere. Or at least not in the way Rommel liked to. It would have been bloody charges again and again into the breach...then who knows. Planning all goes out the window, as does luck.

I was already more than aware of the oil situation in Germany, hence them always having been leading proponents in synthetics. That is what they could have taken from us in oil rich North Africa and beyond. But here i go again lol.

It's been fun talking it out with you old topics i have covered from a thousand other angles and in a hundred different situations, esp in material I've been made to publish "for the greater good." Thank you for playing your part so well. I might yet glean something from our small discussions.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 03:08 AM   #192
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Actually, his logistical staff warned him about the difficulties in supplying him once he past the Egyptian border.

Only 10% in total was lost this way, the major problem was the 1,000 mile distance from the major Axis ports in Africa.
Kicking the British CW out of all of Africa was way beyond the capabilities of the Axis,
Odd that the lack of fuel didn't seem to effect Rommel that badly before Monty arrived.


I'm sorry, but I don't quite know what you are getting at with this
Monty inflicted a defeat on Rommel within weeks of arriving in the desert, and things never got better for Rommel.

That's nonsense.
Monty kicked Rommel's butt time and time again. At the Second Battle of El Alamein Rommel lost nearly 60% of his manpower, and over 90% of his equipment, and the only reason he escaped with the rest was because he ran away very quickly ,the Eighth Army advanced 780 miles in the 20 days after the battle.


You are merely showing with that comment that you don't have a clue how Monty fought his battles, luck had nothing to do with it.
/facepalm

Try to keep the sycophantic unjustified rubbish to yourself Ty. I would hate to ban such an experienced user.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 03:59 AM   #193

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/facepalm

Try to keep the sycophantic unjustified rubbish to yourself Ty. I would hate to ban such an experienced user.
Not sure if you are trying to annoy me or make me laugh
Whatever it is, the one thing it isn't is a rebuttal of the points I made.

Last edited by redcoat; June 25th, 2013 at 04:54 AM.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 05:12 AM   #194
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/facepalm

Try to keep the sycophantic unjustified rubbish to yourself Ty. I would hate to ban such an experienced user.
You might still need to explain how Monty was "lucky" to more people as well. If anything, Monty gets badgered for his over-insured ways, and general unwillingness to gamble on anything. (Except when he seriously did, once, he got bitten badly.) I've seen him raked over the coals over and over for lack of gumption and aggressivness, but so far never for somehow being a lucky gambler?
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Old June 25th, 2013, 06:13 AM   #195

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Since everyone here knows my opinion of Grant, I thought it would be a waste of forum space to include him in this thread, so I thought he would be included automatically...
A complete non-response to the refutations of your misstatements in this thread? What a surprise.

Anyway, my worst of the Civil War remains Gideon Pillow and Leonidas Polk representing the Confederates, and John C. Fremont and Ben Butler representing the United States.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 06:20 AM   #196
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A complete non-response to the refutations of your misstatements in this thread? What a surprise.
You will get your refutations, don't worry, I am just searching the right books to quote at the moment. Be patient
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Old June 25th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #197

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You will get your refutations, don't worry, I am just searching the right books to quote at the moment. Be patient
You're not going to find a book that tells you Pickett's Charge was not a frontal assault. But good luck anyway.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 06:23 AM   #198
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You're not going to find a book that tells you Pickett's Charge was not a frontal assault. But good luck anyway.
You underestimate my power
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #199

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'Worst generals' don't win wars. I wish certain posters here would actually more like real students of history.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #200

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'Worst generals' don't win wars.
Not all of them (but mostly agree!)
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