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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:58 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
Not sure if you are trying to annoy me or make me laugh
Whatever it is, the one thing it isn't is a rebuttal of the points I made.
Well all i can say is...
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Old June 26th, 2013, 02:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Larrey View Post
You might still need to explain how Monty was "lucky" to more people as well. If anything, Monty gets badgered for his over-insured ways, and general unwillingness to gamble on anything. (Except when he seriously did, once, he got bitten badly.) I've seen him raked over the coals over and over for lack of gumption and aggressiveness, but so far never for somehow being a lucky gambler?
I in no way said he was a lucky gambler. If you re-read the post you are clearly thinking of i said he was the opposite of a lucky gunho, gambler who had the rough thoughts of how he was going to pull things out of the air at the end. That is more like Rommel.

Monty, off the top of my head as i have business of a real nature to attend to was lucky primarily in the following ways.

1 . Lucky in Rommel running out of fuel right at the VERY critical moments.

2. Lucky that his per-decessor who was much more suited than Monty and would no doubt have succeeded as easily was, 3 days into his inspections, involved in a plane crash and prompty die.

3. Lucky that the Italians were all but useless as alllies where-as Monty enjoyed the Anzacs alongside Indian troops. So the allies he had fleshing out his army were, if anything, better soldiers than his own. Maybe not on the training ground but where it counts. In battle.

4. Lucky we sank the Bismark so quickly and therefore the navy blockading of supports to Africa via sea for Rommels wasn't interrupted.

5. Lucky that Malta held out; this ensured that no real supplies reached the Russians.

6. Lucky Mussolini managed to turn into an even greater liability than he already had been to begin with. Do not forget ironically he was the only reason the Germans were in Africa. A rather large over sight imo of the German high command was the ability of kicking us out of Africa.

7. Lucky the German high command decided again and again, against better more informed advice to keep the Africa war as a side show to merely promote Rommel who by then had won enough victories to be seen as a perfect example of an "untermensch" and therefore was hardly though of in the halls and offices of the OKH and the OKW. Let alone in the mind of the "greatest General of all time."

8. The constant infighting in the German army and epic bureaucracy. We think ours is bad but it palls when compared to the Germans.

9. The fact the Americans effectively turned it into a battle on two fronts.

10. With their support and with the trickle of our own munitions we managed to get in we out numbered Rommel in everything by about 3-1. And that is at a conservative count so we can pretend there was some truly hard fighting to be done.

That, as quickly as i can type and think at this present moment due to needing to leave is but a few of the hugely promising slices of luck Monty had going for him.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 03:50 AM   #203

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But if Italians were so useless, why did Rommel praise them? How were they bulk of Axis Army in Africa? How was they brought all supplies?
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Old June 26th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #204

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Originally Posted by Synorbs View Post
I
1 . Lucky in Rommel running out of fuel right at the VERY critical moments.
That wasn't luck that was Rommel's stupidity in advancing further than his logistical supply line could cope with.
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2. Lucky that his predecessor who was much more suited than Monty and would no doubt have succeeded as easily was, 3 days into his inspections, involved in a plane crash and prompt die.
He said himself just before he died that the Eighth Army needed someone 'new' with fresh ideas
Quote:

3. Lucky that the Italians were all but useless as allies where-as Monty enjoyed the Anzacs alongside Indian troops. So the allies he had fleshing out his army were, if anything, better soldiers than his own. Maybe not on the training ground but where it counts. In battle.
The mixture of the two armies was the same as when the Axis forced the Eighth back into Egypt
Quote:
Lucky we sank the Bismark so quickly and therefore the navy blockading of supports to Africa via sea for Rommel's wasn't interrupted.
I've already told you that in total only 10% of the supplies sent to North Africa by the Axis was lost to enemy action

Quote:
5. Lucky that Malta held out; this ensured that no real supplies reached the Russians.


Quote:
6. Lucky Mussolini managed to turn into an even greater liability than he already had been to begin with. Do not forget ironically he was the only reason the Germans were in Africa. A rather large over sight imo of the German high command was the ability of kicking us out of Africa.

7. Lucky the German high command decided again and again, against better more informed advice to keep the Africa war as a side show to merely promote Rommel who by then had won enough victories to be seen as a perfect example of an "untermensch" and therefore was hardly though of in the halls and offices of the OKH and the OKW. Let alone in the mind of the "greatest General of all time."

8. The constant infighting in the German army and epic bureaucracy. We think ours is bad but it palls when compared to the Germans.
All these factors applied before Monty arrived in the desert

Quote:
9. The fact the Americans effectively turned it into a battle on two fronts.
After the Second Battle Of El Alamein, where Rommel's army had lost around 60% of its personnel and 95% of his equipment and was retreating as fast as it could.

Quote:
10. With their support and with the trickle of our own munitions we managed to get in we out numbered Rommel in everything by about 3-1. And that is at a conservative count so we can pretend there was some truly hard fighting to be done.
In armour and equipment the the advantage was 2-1
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Old June 26th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #205

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If Erich Ludendorff and Alfred von Schlieffen haven't been mentioned yet, they're good candidates for this. I'd say von Hindenburg should be mentioned, too, but that's only if you give him more credit for the victories of Tweedledum and Tweedledee than I do. Schlieffen epitomizes why modern wars are too sophisticated to be left purely in the hands of the generals.

Likewise, if Paul von Rennenkampf and Nikolai Nikolaievich haven't been mentioned yet, along with Jilinski and Samsonov, they all should have been. Along with Lev Mekhlis, Kliment Voroshilov, Dmitri Pavlov, Fyodor Kuznetsov, and Semyon Budenny.

And Douglas MacArthur. George Custer, too. Not to mention Henry Wager Halleck, Don Carlos Buell, William Westmoreland, Frederendall, and Horatio Gates.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #206

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Hindenburg`s spectacular victories at the battles of Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes can hardly be dismissed as the battles of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:42 PM   #207

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Hindenburg`s spectacular victories at the battles of Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes can hardly be dismissed as the battles of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
Tannenberg was actually von Prittwitz's design and if Ludendorff had had his orders obeyed would not have happened on the scale that it did. Norman Stone in The Eastern Front showed that whatever the Masurian Lakes victory was, a smashing strategic victory was not one of those things.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #208

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The Eighth Army had now completed one of the most astounding victories in history, completely destroying the Second Army, mauling the First, and ejecting all Russian troops from German soil.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Masurian_Lakes]First Battle of the Masurian Lakes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Samsonov's forces were spread out along a 60 mile front and advancing gradually against the Germans when, on 26 August, Ludendorff ordered an attack on Samsonov's left wing near Usdau. There, German artillery forced a Russian retreat, whereupon they were pursued toward Neidenburg, in the rear of the Russian centre.
A Russian counter-attack from Soldau enabled two Russian army corps to escape south east before the German pursuit continued. By nightfall on 29 August the Russian centre, amounting to three army corps, was surrounded by Germans and stuck in a forest with no means of escape. The Russians disintegrated and were taken prisoner by the thousands. Faced with total defeat, Samsonov shot himself. By the end of the month, the Germans had taken 92,000 prisoners and annihilated half of the Russian 2nd Army. Rennenkampf's army had not moved at all during this battle, vindicating Ludendorff's calculated risk.
After being reinforced, the Germans turned on Rennenkampf's slowly advancing Army, attacking it in the first half of September and driving it from East Prussia. It was a crushing defeat for the Russians. In total, they lost around 250,000 men - an entire army - as well as vast amounts of military equipment.

BBC - History - World Wars: Battle of Tannenberg: 26-30 August 1914


Yes the twin German victories at Tannenberg and the Masurian lakes smashed the
Russian drive into East Prussia, almost destroyed the Russian 1sy army and forced the 2nd army into headlong retreat. Not quite the Tweedledum and Tweedledee battles you seemed to imply they were.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #209

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Tannenberg was von Prittwitz's design and worked because Samsonov overstretched his lines to a point he lost control of his army. The Masurian Lakes battle worked so successfully to clear German soil that a Second Battle of the Masurian Lakes had to be fought in 1915, and dealt such a brilliant strategic blow that the two Russian armies retreated intact and dealt a strategic counteroffensive that left a line not entirely distinctive to what had been there in 1914. Most definitely battles that were, to put it bluntly, deliberately lied about.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #210

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Following the Russian First and Second Armies early victories against the Germans at the Gumbinnen the timorous Eighth Army commander Maximilian von Prittwitz, ordered the army to retreat to the River Vistula. This would effectively abandon East Prussia to the Russians. Prittwitz was immediately relieved of command in favour of Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff. The plan for Tannenburg was a much Hoffmans as it was Pritwitz, indeed Pritwitz had been recalled to Berlin before the battle started which is why the victory is more usually credited to Hindenburg.

Furthermore the loss of around 250,000 men - an entire army - as well as vast amounts of military equipment is normally classed as a serious defeat.
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