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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:32 AM   #41

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So Stalin asked and Churchill delivered?

What did Churchill get in return?
1/. A perceived faster end to hostilities.
2/. An opportunity to demonstrate to the Soviets the massive power of the Allied air weapon in the form of the mass day/night raid, that, until that time, the Soviets had only an inkling of. Just to remind them in case there were thoughts of not halting at the agreed area of occupation.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:35 AM   #42

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Originally Posted by Boethus View Post
So Stalin asked and Churchill delivered?

What did Churchill get in return?
In a sense, both Churchill and FDR delivered. The request was passed to their respective air staffs for feasibility and action. Churchill was pressing for satisfactory arrangements regarding Poland. FDR also, but his main objective was to get the firm commitment from Stalin to enter the war against Japan. For the Americans, their bomber barons had postwar political considerations as to the composition of the future USAF that made it easier for them to go along with Dresden, but it's probably better to discuss this in another thread.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:39 AM   #43

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Though I would imagine the Western Allies would have eventually gotten around to her, Dresden was specifically requested by Stalin to be bombed in support of his planned operations in that area. He made the request at the Yalta conference.
I think Dresden escaped destruction for so long through some sort of clerical error. I'd wager that once it came to the attention of the rightful authorities, it would have been burnt/smashed even if Stalin had requested it be spared.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 05:43 AM   #44

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I think Dresden escaped destruction for so long through some sort of clerical error. I'd wager that once it came to the attention of the rightful authorities, it would have been burnt/smashed even if Stalin had requested it be spared.
My thought also. Though Ancient Geezer's point on giving the Soviets pause on any plan to overrun Europe was in play, if only ancillary.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 06:23 AM   #45

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janusdviveidis,

I totally see what you're saying. It's horrible, certainly.

There is a certain logic of one thing leads to another. At the outset, there was some hand wringing on the subject of private property being damaged by bombing. By the end of the war one bomb was all that was needed to completely destroy an entire city and everyone in it. A guy wouldn't hardly be human if he didn't have some strong feelings on the subject. But at the end of the day, one still has to admit that feelings are not facts in the same sense as other facts are facts.

However, this is not to say that all hope is lost. The great powers et al could get together and adopt a fifth Geneva Convention. There would be no downside to that.

When one thinks about it, the Rules of War are basically there to assure that war is not more horrible than necessary for the soldiers/sailors etc. But knowing that their loved ones back home are getting crushed, burned, etc. by bombings does indeed make things very much worse for them.

Maybe a twitter-based sentiment groundswell is in order.
But just because one side cares doesn't mean the other side does. One can have all the Geneva accords one wants. They are only as good as the willingness of BOTH parties to abide by them. In WWII, Japan had not signed the 1929 but in 1942 said they would abide by them. Yet you get the Bataan death march -- apparently, Japan only changed tack when the risk of reprisal became a factor.
World War Two - The Geneva Convention | HistoryOnTheNet

and prisoner of war: The 1929 Geneva Convention | Infoplease.com

In the case of WWII, Germany was perfectly willing to hit any target she could -- it made no difference to them if a V2 or bombs from aircraft destroyed women and children. Hitler was focused on eliminating a whole peoples using the most efficient means he could. A people who could support such a leader could not be expected to change attitude simply by targeting only those who had guns and were actively engaged in using them. In more modern times, the use of land mines and IEDs guarantees that even though the primary target may be military, a number of civilians will be injured or killed. The Horror of Landmines | Afghanistan Year 1380 | POV | PBS

When the other party won't "play by the rules", there are really only three options:
1. one can win without breaking the rules oneself by virtue of having the means and the willingness to take the additional injury caused by the other side breaking the rules.

2. one can lose without breaking the rules oneself because one lacks the means and cannot sustain the additional injury caused by the other side breaking the rules.

3. one can break the rules oneself and by doing so either convince the first party to return to abiding by the rules or else inflict equal or greater injury to the other party because of the lack of rules.

The Geneva accords only succeed if those contemplating breaking them believe that the "punishment" of sanctions or additional opponents or the other side doing the same is sufficient deterrent. Historically, where countries or movements don't believe that, they don't abide by the conventions.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 07:53 AM   #46
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Beorna-the only ''dross'' is you utterly unhistorical and boringly predictable response to my imepeccably factual take on the bombing of Dresden.
Even your fellow leading fellow Germans I.E. The Burgomeister and Bishop of Hamburg agree with me .
In speeches in 1993 marking the 50th anniversary of the firebombing of Hamburg they told the 40,000 people who came to their meeting '' What happened to our predecessors oin July 1943 was JUST retribution for Germans supporting the Nazis and what they did to the Jews...''-Absolutely right!
Also ,please!!!- it ill behoves any modern German like yourself to give me moral lectures on killiing women and children by bombing when your mob or your Nazi supporting ancestors between 1939-45 started the process of indiscrimate bombing of civilians at Guernica , Spain and Warsaw and Rotterdam.
It's a typical Nazi mindset- your garbage about allied bombing -We can try to exterminate you by firebombing London December 28 1940 that's fine wundebar! prima! but how dare you Brits do the same to we poor victims who gassed women & chldren with great Teutonic efficency at Auschwitz for simply being who they were. .
P.S-To the poster who asked why the Dresden raid took place ?-study my initial post carefully and you will see the answer.
Dresden was a major Nazi war production centre ; we were rightly also,trying to assist our Soviet allies in destroying the Fascism the same Fascisim that Beorna and his ilk wants us all to be apologetic about for opposing
Incidentally, in 1993 that meeting was called by the female Burgomeister of Hamburg and the female Bishop of the old Hanseatic port to counter a Neo-Nazi rally in Hamburg which wanted to mark the 50th anniversary of ''Operation Gomorrah' .The Neo -Nazis (peddling the Beorna allied bombing was njustified line)could only attract 4,000 to their pokey wee meeting (in contrast to the 40,000 who rallied to hear the Burgomeister denounce those Germans who had brought down allied bombing on their own heads by their criminal support of the equally criminal Third Reich. between 1933-45.
Finally my hero the great Bomber Command chief Arthur Harris, said it most eloquently when he declared..''. not a single Nazi German city is worth ther bones of a single British grenadier ...''
Unfortunatley, 55,00 RAF men died bringing the war to the Nazis -ONLY they not the Nazi supporting civvies of Dresden Hamburg Pforzheim Cologne et al -deserve our sympathy,
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Old August 17th, 2014, 08:05 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Pendennis View Post
Beorna-the only ''dross'' is you utterly unhistorical and boringly predictable response to my imepeccably factual take on the bombing of Dresden.
Even your fellow leading fellow Germans I.E. The Burgomeister and Bishop of Hamburg agree with me .
In speeches in 1993 marking the 50th anniversary of the firebombing of Hamburg they told the 40,000 people who came to their meeting '' What happened to our predecessors oin July 1943 was JUST retribution for Germans supporting the Nazis and what they did to the Jews...''-Absolutely right!
Also ,please!!!- it ill behoves any modern German like yourself to give me moral lectures on killiing women and children by bombing when your mob or your Nazi supporting ancestors between 1939-45 started the process of indiscrimate bombing of civilians at Guernica , Spain and Warsaw and Rotterdam.
It's a typical Nazi mindset- your garbage about allied bombing -We can try to exterminate you by firebombing London December 28 1940 that's fine wundebar! prima! but how dare you Brits do the same to we poor victims who gassed women & chldren with great Teutonic efficency at Auschwitz for simply being who they were. .
P.S-To the poster who asked why the Dresden raid took place ?-study my initial post carefully and you will see the answer.
Dresden was a major Nazi war production centre ; we were rightly also,trying to assist our Soviet allies in destroying the Fascism the same Fascisim that Beorna and his ilk wants us all to be apologetic about for opposing
Incidentally, in 1993 that meeting was called by the female Burgomeister of Hamburg and the female Bishop of the old Hanseatic port to counter a Neo-Nazi rally in Hamburg which wanted to mark the 50th anniversary of ''Operation Gomorrah' .The Neo -Nazis (peddling the Beorna allied bombing was njustified line)could only attract 4,000 to their pokey wee meeting (in contrast to the 40,000 who rallied to hear the Burgomeister denounce those Germans who had brought down allied bombing on their own heads by their criminal support of the equally criminal Third Reich. between 1933-45.
Finally my hero the great Bomber Command chief Arthur Harris, said it most eloquently when he declared..''. not a single Nazi German city is worth ther bones of a single British grenadier ...''
Unfortunatley, 55,00 RAF men died bringing the war to the Nazis -ONLY they not the Nazi supporting civvies of Dresden Hamburg Pforzheim Cologne et al -deserve our sympathy,

From your post I can assume you think, that crimes of Nazi gives England permission to commit any crimes that they like. I kind of agree, both Germany and England used aviation in very similar way. The only difference is that Allies were better at bombing cities.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #48

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it ill behoves any modern German like yourself to give me moral lectures on killiing women and children by bombing when your mob or your Nazi supporting ancestors between 1939-45 started the process of indiscrimate bombing of civilians at Guernica , Spain and Warsaw and Rotterdam.
You can make your case without being distasteful and insulting about it. The whole point is that indiscrimate bombing of civilians is wrong no matter who is doing it.
By the way I love the phrase " it ill behoves " !!!
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Old August 17th, 2014, 09:05 AM   #49

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I think by rules of war of 1945, Area bombing was not prohibited. So technically no.
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Old August 17th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #50
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DEAR JANUS -ENGLAND???-England and Germany have never been at war for a single micromillionth of a second IN HISTORY-so I am baffled by your question ??? ONLY GREAT BRITAIN I.E. ENGLAND SCOTLAND WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND WERE AT WAR WITH NAZI GERMANY BETWEEN 1939-45-NOT ''ENGLAND''. WHICH LOST THE POWER TO DECLARE WAR ON ANYONE ON mAY 1ST 1707 WHEN England signed the Treaty of Union with Scotland.
Also your other point is utterly invalid because any criminality associated with Great Britain was by default.In contrast criminallity was part and parcel of all Nazi conduct with Nazi Germany throughout the Second World War achieving levels of moral wickedness never remotely matched by Great Britain and the allies.-Britain and the western allies were the good guys between 1939 Nazi Germany the monstrouis villains . So your question is bogus as one can only compare like with like and morally Great Britain -including bombing the Nazi Gwerman back into the Dark Ages or defeating them on the battlefield were the good guys-Britain and Nazi Germany were morally as unlike as chalk and cheese.
Comparing Nazi Germany morally with Britain between 1939-45 is like trying to say that syphillis is just the same as pennicillin (Britian or more specifically one of my fellow Scottish countrymen Alexander Fleming discovered pennicillin during W.W.2 .In contrast, the German Nazis tried to spread the moral syphlliis of Nazism throughout Europe.
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