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Old August 31st, 2014, 02:48 PM   #11
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That's not entirely true. In the case of Yugoslavia you had also stationed Turkmen units, SS Handžar and Skanderbeg divisions and others. There were also a lot local colaborant units, such as the Ustaše, Nedićevci, certain Četnik units, Slovenski domobranci and many others. Those were the most brutal in their attitude towards the locals. That there were mostly Austrians is probably true only for the areas directly annexed to the Reich - Slovene Styria, Carniola and Carinthia. Those were controled by Wehrmanschaften, which included also a lot of local men. Those often surrendered quickly at partisan attacks.
There were only a few infantery divisions to occupy. The most other divisions were send to defend against a supposed british landing. But you are correct, that there were some SS units, the handschar since february 1944, in october these unit was no longer possible to send on missions, because many deserted. This was widely the result of terror of the Ustasa against muslim Bosniaks. Skanderbeg existed as well only from may to december 1944. You forgot the prinz Eugen, which was established in 1942. The members were in vast majority Germans from the banat or Romania. All three were more infamous for war crimes, than for military success.
You are correct, too, that the Germans had allies there, the Ustasa, the domobranci, the italians, cetniks.

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Otherwise they acted in many different ways. Take a look at the desant on Drvar or how they crushed the Užice republic.
There were a lot anti-partisan missions. But the terrain made it often easy for the partisans to escape. That is something that often happened, not only in Yugoslavia, the germans could beat the partisans, but not destroy them. Only the civilians couldn't escaped often.

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In Frankolovo, not that far from where I live they killed 100 Slovenes because one high Nazi functionary was killed in a partisan ambush. He was driving from his wedding. Thatfor the Germans gathered 100 hostages from the prisons in Celje and Maribor and hanged 99 of them on the trees along the road at Frankolovo. Only one wasn't hanged - because he was shot when he tried to escape.
Yes, but under Dorfmeister this was rather a usual behaviour. Even before as commissar for Cilli he killed hostages. Of course was the partisan behaviour not less brutal. The great misfortune for Frankolovo was, that Dorfmeister was a high rank Austrian Nazi and that HSSPF Rösener ordered the killing by the SS.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 06:36 AM   #12

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There were only a few infantery divisions to occupy. The most other divisions were send to defend against a supposed british landing. But you are correct, that there were some SS units, the handschar since february 1944, in october these unit was no longer possible to send on missions, because many deserted. This was widely the result of terror of the Ustasa against muslim Bosniaks. Skanderbeg existed as well only from may to december 1944. You forgot the prinz Eugen, which was established in 1942. The members were in vast majority Germans from the banat or Romania. All three were more infamous for war crimes, than for military success.
You are correct, too, that the Germans had allies there, the Ustasa, the domobranci, the italians, cetniks.
There was also another SS unit that had a lot of Germans from Yugoslavia and some Slovenes aswell. Sadly I forgot its name, they later fought in Italy aswell. I hope you know which one I mean? I am not that widely familiar with the hapenings in whole Yugoslavia. Slovene Partisans acted as a separate movement from Tito until 1944 and even in Slovenia the situation is often complicated, especially in Carniola, which saw almost everything: Germans, Italians, Vaške straže, Gorenjski domobranci, Slovensko domobranstvo, Četniki, Partisans and even more in the ending of the war when the Balkan Army with all their colaborants mowed to Carinthia (though they mostly went through Styria - the last surrender of the European war took place in Topolšica near Velenje).


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There were a lot anti-partisan missions. But the terrain made it often easy for the partisans to escape. That is something that often happened, not only in Yugoslavia, the germans could beat the partisans, but not destroy them. Only the civilians couldn't escaped often.
Indeed, though the terrain often made it as hard for the partisans as for the Germans. I can see that alone in the movement of the 14th division of Slovene Partisans who were sent to Styrian, which was part of the Reich then. They wanted to go to the wast woodlands of Pohorje but had to split on their way and only half of them got there. They took heavy loses. The museum in Celje (Cilli) published a book about the happenings during the war in the Celje district a few years ago, I got one then. It's not a bad one, but I'd had to go through it once again. I have a ton of other books to read for school meanwhile, so ...


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Yes, but under Dorfmeister this was rather a usual behaviour. Even before as commissar for Cilli he killed hostages. Of course was the partisan behaviour not less brutal. The great misfortune for Frankolovo was, that Dorfmeister was a high rank Austrian Nazi and that HSSPF Rösener ordered the killing by the SS.
Well, there were hostage shooting quite a few times before. Stari pisker prison in Celje saw a lot of shootings. Once the partisans even managed to free the prisoners from it. Quite an achievement.
Otherwise the greater trouble was to escape the conscription in the Wehrmacht. About 20.000 Slovene Styrians had to join it, most of them went on the Eastern front (where many surrendered to the Russians). Many went rather to the Partisans instead but the trouble was that their families could suffer from it - being sent to concentration camps, taken hostage and sent to prison or simply shot.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 08:11 AM   #13
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There was also another SS unit that had a lot of Germans from Yugoslavia and some Slovenes aswell. Sadly I forgot its name, they later fought in Italy aswell. I hope you know which one I mean? I am not that widely familiar with the hapenings in whole Yugoslavia. Slovene Partisans acted as a separate movement from Tito until 1944 and even in Slovenia the situation is often complicated, especially in Carniola, which saw almost everything: Germans, Italians, Vaške straže, Gorenjski domobranci, Slovensko domobranstvo, Četniki, Partisans and even more in the ending of the war when the Balkan Army with all their colaborants mowed to Carinthia (though they mostly went through Styria - the last surrender of the European war took place in Topolšica near Velenje).
I am not completely sure which you mean, the Florian geyer was for a short time in Croatia for replacements. Probably you mean the Waffengrenadier-Karstjäger-Division (rather a brigade), which had mostly Italians, Slovenians and Croatians, but as well Austrians and Volksdeutsche. They fought quite "succesful" in Italy and western Yugoslavia and were in the end inflicted in excessive war crimes.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 08:18 AM   #14

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I am not completely sure which you mean, the Florian geyer was for a short time in Croatia for replacements. Probably you mean the Waffengrenadier-Karstjäger-Division (rather a brigade), which had mostly Italians, Slovenians and Croatians, but as well Austrians and Volksdeutsche. They fought quite "succesful" in Italy and western Yugoslavia and were in the end inflicted in excessive war crimes.
I have to check (which I can't right now). They fought in the Juian Alps aswell. I'll tell if I find it.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 08:40 AM   #15
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I have to check (which I can't right now). They fought in the Juian Alps aswell. I'll tell if I find it.
Then it is the karstjäger.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 09:11 AM   #16

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There were only a few infantery divisions to occupy. The most other divisions were send to defend against a supposed british landing. But you are correct, that there were some SS units, the handschar since february 1944, in october these unit was no longer possible to send on missions, because many deserted. This was widely the result of terror of the Ustasa against muslim Bosniaks. Skanderbeg existed as well only from may to december 1944. You forgot the prinz Eugen, which was established in 1942. The members were in vast majority Germans from the banat or Romania. All three were more infamous for war crimes, than for military success.
You are correct, too, that the Germans had allies there, the Ustasa, the domobranci, the italians, cetniks.
You are talking about the Banater Schwaben and the Siebenbürger Sachsen.

Two ethnic groups who payed for her sins and the sins of all the German with the loose of her land, culture and language.

Making war together with the German is quit dangerous. We certainly know about it.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 09:28 AM   #17

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Robert Schuman brought the people from Alsace-Lorraine who went to the Banat in the 18th century back home.


Fête du retour des Alsaciens du Banat - Vidéo Ina.fr
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Old September 1st, 2014, 09:57 AM   #18

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You are talking about the Banater Schwaben and the Siebenbürger Sachsen.

Two ethnic groups who payed for her sins and the sins of all the German with the loose of her land, culture and language.

Making war together with the German is quit dangerous. We certainly know about it.
So did the Gotscheer and the Lower Styrian Germans. I don't pity those from Lower Styria, most of them fit in nicely in the Nazi regime but the Gotscheer were displaced from Kočevje to Kozjansko-Bizeljsko (so that they displaced the Slovenes from there to NDH, Serbia or to Germany). At the end of the war they had to flee to Germany or Austria. Some however stayed and also joined the Slovene Partisans. Few of those survived the war but those who did were allowed to stay in Slovenia (all other Germans were expelled) and were/are the only ones to keep their ancient dialect, which is highly endangered (there are only a couple hundred speakers remaining). Many of those (Gotscheer) who went to Kozjansko were conscripted to the Wehrmacht or other units and quite a few surrendered to the Russians on the Eastern Front. They spoke Slovene aswell and that basically saved them as Russians treated other Slavs much better than Germans. They then often became cooks or joined their ranks. Of course not all were that lucky.

How about the Donau Schwaben?


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Then it is the karstjäger.
Yes, it's the Karstjäger.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 10:06 AM   #19

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In the Banat you had people from Germany, Alsace-Lorraine both French speakers and German speakers and even Italians.

The lingua franca of all this people was Donau Schwäbisch.

So they were all considered Volksdeutsche and had to join German Wehrmacht.

http://www.banaterra.eu/french/
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Old September 1st, 2014, 10:12 AM   #20

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Originally Posted by Isleifson View Post
In the Banat you had people from Germany, Alsace-Lorraine both French speakers and German speakers and even Italians.

The lingua franca of all this people was Donau Schwäbisch.

So they were all considered Volksdeutsche and had to join German Wehrmacht.

BANATerra - Une encyclopédie progressive du Banat
I see.
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