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Old March 22nd, 2015, 07:00 PM   #61

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Lucky? Pakistan's army is why the state failed. Time and again, the Army took over and thus completely destroyed Pakistan's ability to be sustain democratic institutions for decades to come. The Army was instrumental in the creation of extremist groups within Pakistan and its neighbors. Pakistan was extremely unlucky in how powerful the Army was in its country. And the strength of Pakistan's army was historically irrelevant. Pakistan has never been threatened by an out and out invasion of its territory, so the idea that a "strong" army is the reason why Pakistan "survived" is absurd. Pakistan's army OTH has a history of misleading its population on its strength and abilities only to be exposed by each succeeding conflict it engages in.

If Pakistan hadn't received a setup where the army was so regionally and politically dominant, it might actually have been a far more stable and prosperous nation.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #62
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Edit; Sorry about this. I typed a page and lost half of it. Can't bothered to do it again today.

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Old March 25th, 2015, 01:32 PM   #63
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^
Your comments say more about how you feel about Pakistan then anything else. I am not going to derail this thread therefore can we just agree to disagree.

LEGACY

When the British arrived in the Indus Valley region [ What is now Pakistan ] they found various kingdoms and Khanates.

Indus River Basin Map with boundary of Pakistan overlaid.

Click the image to open in full size.

The Emirate of Sindh was in the south of the a region on the mouth of the Indus which flows into Arabian Sea up north to the centre. The northern half was occupied by Punjab of Ranjit Singh. To the west of Sindh were small Khanates like Khan of Kalat in Balochistan.

The British annexed Sindh in 1843 at the Battle of Miani when they defeated the Talpur forces of Sindh. Little did te people of the Indus Valley know that this battke would trigger a chain of historical events that would lead to a integrated independent Indus Valley in the form of federal republic of Pakistan about 100 years later.

Battle of Miani [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Miani"]Battle of Miani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Subsequent war with Ranjit Singh's Punjab Empire and defeat resulted in Punjab and Frontier coming under British rule. Balochistan also came under British influence. The area of what now is Pakistan was almost all under British rule by 1849. Thus for the next 97 years the Punjabi, Pashtun, Baloch and Sindhi of today's Pakistan found themselves part of the empire.

That 97 year rule came to end in 1947 when most of the Punjab, Frontier [ recruited from Pashtun ] and Baloch regiments were allocated to Pakistan Army and men like Sepoy Haider Ali VC of the Frontier Regiment found themselves in the Pakistan Army.

Most of these were the fighting regiments of the erstwhile British Indian Army and had seen action in Norh Africa as part of the 4th Infantry Division - Indian. Pakistan was also fortunate in that the largest combat command in British India - The Northern Command fell in Pakistan and was headquarted in Rawalpindi next to Pakistan capital Islamabad. The entire Northern Command including HQ was handed to Pakistan. British Army Rawalpindi HQ became Pakistan Army HQ and remains so today.

In 1920s officer commission had become available to 'natives' but by 1947 the highest rank Pakistani officers were Brigadiers. The problem was there was a vacuam of senior staff officers and in particular technical or specialist branches like engineering. This shortage was sorted by a arrangement that Pakistan made with UK where in British officers were retained under contract in the Pakistan Army.

Thus it is that the first and second Chief of Staff of Pakistan Army based at GHQ Rawalpindi were British. Hundreds of other British officers on contract were also retained. Some of them choosing to spend rest of their lives in Pakistan.

Chief of Army Staff (Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Gen. Frank Messervy 1947-1948

2. Gen. Douglas Gracey - 1948-1951

and only in 1951 did Brigadier Ayub Khan get promoted to general and take over as the first native commander of Pakistan Army.

Ayub Khan (President of Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gen. Ayub Khan arriving at GHQ to take command in 1951. He would go on to become President in 1958.

Click the image to open in full size.

BBC Interview 1960s



The services of 100s of other officers was also retained and includeding even Polish airmen who were contracted by Pak airforce as there was etreme shortage of technical manpower in the airforce.

Air Commodore Turowicz was one of 3,000 Polish in Pakistan post Soviet take over of that country who experiance was used in the PAF and even missile programme of the 1960s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82...%82aw_Turowicz

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Old March 25th, 2015, 01:34 PM   #64
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Conclusion

I want to go back and remind people what prompted me to start this thread. Bernard Manning and his " Irish are drunks but fun, Indian's smell but they fought for us, Pak** what did they do?"

As I believe I have shown in the peoples of the Indus Valley region, Pashtun, Punjabi, Baloch and Sindhi that became Pakistan actually made a contribution far greater compared to their numbers evidenced by the Punjab, Frontier and Baloch Regiments that figure so often in the annals of British Indian Army.

They have fought on the battlefields of Europe in WW1 won and men of the Baloch Regiment won the fiirst Victoria Cross by a South Asian in 1914 Jemadar Khudadad Khan in Ypres to deserts of North Africa, to Mesopotamia to Burma. Their graves are littered all over the world.

I think it's vital today that the role that men from what is now Pakistan is brought to the fore and not hidden in history or smoked by the term 'Indian' because in 2015 most people connect that with modern day India and not Pakistan thus the joke by Manning.

It's not just this. Almost 50% of the British Muslim population is of Pakistan extraction and increasingly I observe with some concern that they are being won over by Muslim radicals. These young people are told stories by the Mullah's about the heroism of 11 century Mamalukes but are totally ignorent about what their grandfathers did.

Not long ago with some disgust whilst parked next to the exit of Asda entrance to pick my elderly parents there was British Legion volunteeers with poppies. I did not see one British Muslim stop and give money. annoyed I got out and I had a chat with one of the gens who confirmed that it was rare for a British Muslim to pick a poppy. The simple reality is in the muslimnarrative as has been constructed the whole poopy thing is alien concept.

I can't blame those youngsters when I know even well read people are not aware of the contribution by what is now Pakistan. any mention of those men is subsumed under the 'Indian' bracket. So it's about time schools with large numbers of Muslim children were taught about their forefathers role in the British Empire and so that they look at men like splendid Sepoy Haider Ali VC who won his medal in Italy in 1944 are their role models and not some Muslim Mullah in the Middle East.

This in time would lead to a feeling of inclusiveness and pull toward the Union Jack and more would join the British Army like L/Cpl Jabron Hashmi who lost his life in Afghanistan instead of joining Al Qaida.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabron_Hashmi"]Jabron Hashmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

They need heros like Sepoy Haider VC

Click the image to open in full size.

and they need to remember these fallen forefathers every November buried all over the world


Click the image to open in full size.

Woking Muslim Burial Ground.

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Punjabi Muslims from what is now Pakistan praying outside Shah Jahan Mosque, Woking, Surrey, WW1

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and Sepoy Zarif Khan, Baloch Light Infantry

Click the image to open in full size.

I want to dedicate this thread to all the men from the four provinces of what is now Pakistan who died in both World Wars.
Click the image to open in full size.


* Pashtun's are from NWFP - Frontier.

** Please accept my apology for any spelling or grammar mistakes.


-------------------------------------------------- CONCLUDED --------------------------------------------------

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Old April 3rd, 2015, 09:22 AM   #65
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Probably the highest ranking member of the British Armed Forces from the ethnic minority is Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain who moved with his mother from Pakistan in 1962 when he was three years old.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amjad_Hussain"]Amjad Hussain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain, the highest ranking Muslim officer in the armed forces | Society | The Guardian

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Old April 13th, 2015, 01:36 PM   #66
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As I said before the legacy of the 'Soldiers of the Empire' lives on in Pakistan. Not only in the proud regiments that hold Pakistan togather from going the way of Afghanistan but in many human stories ..

In 1947 there was shortage of officers in the Pak Army as most officers above Colonel were British. Many of their services were secured through contracts that lasted well into 1950s. Even Polish aircrew were contracted. Many of these men never left Pakistan and stayed behind as living reminders of the Empire.

Now 68 years later most of that generation are dead but one Major Geoffrey Langlands lives on at the grand old age of 97 lives on. After leaving Pakistan Army in 1950s the Major got a job as a teacher at the Pakistani equivalent of Eton College, Aitchison College in Lahore. Imran Khan was one of his students in the early 1970s.

After retiring from Aitchison the Major being a man of action moved to Chitral, high in the northern mountains of Pakistan where glaciers meet the sky and Kalash Valleys are about 30 miles from there. There he set up a school and since than has lived there. However at the age of 95 he was to week and his former employer Aitchison College has taken him back. He now lives on the College premises to spend his last days in peace of the large green fields of the outbuildings and dorminoty. Imran Khan being a ex student who also lives in Lahore drops into see him.

Another Briton, a female has taken his place. I don't think they make men like Major Langlands anymore. This is the stuff that built the Empire. Lot of the best schools in Pakistan continue to have either British or Irish teachers. It is they who churn out the next crop of elite making sure the legacy of the empire continues.

Goodbye to Major Geoffrey Langlands of the Hindu Kush - Telegraph

Major Geoffrey Langlands, 94, leaves his post in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province after 60 years - Telegraph

Click the image to open in full size.

His replacement Carey Schoefield.

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His female students

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His students bid him farewel

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Parents thank him

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The Major dancing Attan

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The school which is ran just like any English school.

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Major Langlands, A Jewel of the Raj - The Imaginative Conservative

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/wo...cher.html?_r=0

"The Major is a living legend in Pakistan.” Does the living legend miss Britain? “No. Chitral feels like home. I wouldn’t have the money to retire back to the UK and I have so many friends here. Britain is very different. It’s everyone for himself. The idea of service is still strong in Pakistan.” And the cricket test? Who does he support?
“Pakistan, of course. The day that Pakistan won the international in Australia, when they beat England in the final, my staff came to me and said, 'Oh, sorry, your team lost.’ I said they didn’t have to be sorry. How could I be sad when the captain of the Pakistani team was my student? The final happened as I wanted: England and Pakistan, and Pakistan won. Perfect.”

"Major.Miss Schofield, 58, is equally confident about her safety. “Invariably, when English people hear that someone is going to live in Pakistan, they talk about the security situation. This really does not seem to me to be an issue. Chitral has not had the sort of violence seen elsewhere in the frontier.”
She looks forward with excitement to her new task."

One leaves and another one takes his place ......

The Major meeting Imran Khan in Aitchison College with Principal.

Click the image to open in full size.

At his new retirement home. Old soldiers don't die but fade away ...

Click the image to open in full size.
x
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Old April 22nd, 2015, 06:23 AM   #67

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An interesting story of a Pakistani soldiers love story with a Burmese woman during WWII.

A Pakistani-Burmese love affair from World War II - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
__________________________________________________ ____________

It was during the Burma Campaign in 1944 when Burmese Independence Army, trained by the Japanese, led initial attacks on the British forces. The Allied forces; British, Chinese and Americans were fighting against the axis powers; forces of the Empire of Japan.

The soldiers from the British side came mostly from British India and amongst the forces was a 20-year-old boy named Muzafar Khan. Hailing from the district of Chakwal in present day Pakistan, he fell in love with a Burmese girl during his tenure in Burma.

Click the image to open in full size.

Young Muzafar was deployed as a solider in the ordinance corps of the British Indian Army in mid 1940s and was sent to Burma on a mission along with other soldiers to combat Japanese forces under Field Marshal William Slim.

The Burmese girl he fell in love with later became his wife and now they live together in a small neighbourhood of Dhudial, a town 43 kilometres south of the Grand Trunk Road on main Mandra-Chakwal Road in the Chakwal district of Punjab.

The tale of their love and how they came to Dhudial revolves around the neighbourhood with slight variations narrated by their relatives, friends and the couple itself.

92-year-old Muzafar is now known as Chacha Kalu in his neighbourhood while Ayesha Bibi who is now 84 is referred to as Mashoo.

The memory of mid-1940s has faded with time and the only truth surviving the two is that they are married with no children and Mashoo left her entire life in Burma to settle in British occupied India.

As I walk through narrow alleys of the neighbourhood, I am asked to enter a small house with a rectangular room that has a wooden sofa on one side and a wooden charpoy on another.

Click the image to open in full size.

Neighbours and relatives, including men, women and children, start pouring in, followed by Mashoo and Chacha Kalu, both walking with the support of wooden sticks.

Wearing a green shalwar kameez, Mashoo has a wrinkled face, blue eyes and a distinct visage, clearly distinguishing her as someone from the southeast. Chacha Kalu, wearing a simple white dress, a red turban and a thick pair of glasses, just stares at me as they sit in front of me.

“There was an ongoing war in my country when I came here,” says Mashoo.

“The Japanese were fighting in Burma during World War II and I was sent on a mission to combat,” Chacha Kalu begins to narrate.

Mashoo remembers that she grew up in a city called Meiktila, in the center of Burma (Myanmar). “I was a Buddhist and used to go to a Buddhist temple to pray with my mother,” she recalls looking up at the ceiling, as pictures of her past flash in front of her eyes.

Click the image to open in full size.

Sitting in the same room, Chacha Kalu’s grand nephews narrate the story that they have heard from their elders.

“Chacha Kalu was young, handsome and was deployed at a barrack in Burma where a young Burmese girl, with long hair and blue eyes would provide food to the soldiers everyday. He fell in love with her.”

Chacha Kalu recollects his memories “She lost all of her family in the war and I brought her along with me to get married”. The chemistry in their relationship is beautiful.

Chacha Kalu has developed a hearing impairment due to age and Mashoo has a visual impairment. She has to speak aloud to talk to him and despite aging significantly, she likes to make him tea.

“I have my own kitchen and he only likes the tea that I make for him,” chuckles Mashoo.

“He provided me a home and family,” she says, pointing at the people inside the room.

“This is my family,” she says.

Click the image to open in full size.

One person in the group said: “They never had any children, but we are their children”. A child standing up says, “I clean their dishes”; another one says, “I take care of them by providing water in the house”.

As they all smile with contentment, I am pleased to see the love and affection these people have for each other.

Masho speaks fluent Punjabi, which has become her first language. Having no contacts in Burma at all, she lives with Muzafar in a small old mud house. It is evident that their relatives and neighbours support them in every way.

She converted to Islam when she moved to what was to become Pakistan. She does not remember her previous name that people used to call her by since that was 70 years ago, but Ayesha bibi is the name she chose when she converted and married Muzafar. In the neighbourhood, the children started calling her Maa Aasho (Mother Aasho), which later became Mashoo as a short form.

Click the image to open in full size.

One of her neighbours, Mehwish Tariq, recalls her childhood memories with Mashoo. “While growing up, I would go to her house and spend time with her listening to her stories. I would cook for her and she would always treat me as her child. Mashoo is my best friend.”

Chacha Kalu has performed Hajj and Mashoo wishes the same for herself but their only survival is through the pension fund that Muzafar receive as an ex-soldier of British Army from Commonwealth Ex-services Association of Pakistan.

Mashoo received a new identity, from a Burmese-Buddhist to a Punjabi-Muslim in British occupied India, and later as a Pakistani after partition. But she says that as long as she is living with Muzafar, and in the same neighbourhood, the questions of identity do not matter to her.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old May 14th, 2015, 06:40 PM   #68
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Time for a Song? How about this song by Arieb Azhar. This is what you get if you have a Pakee* who ends up in a Irish bar and after having a few starts singing about recruitment into the British Army.

Go figure .....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kyW5oVTZRI"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kyW5oVTZRI[/ame]

The older more mature Arieb Azhar singing in Punjabi, Pakistan

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeHUhkmOmZg"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeHUhkmOmZg[/ame]

and in between he has done a stint in Croatia and Bosnia. Pak** you find 'em everywhere.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu_fsYiGbCE"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu_fsYiGbCE[/ame]

and singing against extremism and terrorism in Pakistan as part of "Aman Ittehad" which translates to 'Peace United'. One of these days he is going get blown away by Taliban like Benezir ...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz6Ih5I9T0"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz6Ih5I9T0[/ame]

Edit: I hope nobody minds the songs. Consider these as my re-introduction to these forums since my "unelective holiday" from Historum.

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Old May 24th, 2015, 11:46 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaKeeza View Post
Like I said the effect of the British bias in recruiting men from the extreme north west of british India ( Punjabi, Pashtuns ) would have a profound effect on the politics and future of Pakistan. This resounds even today. The army continues to have a dominant effect on the country.

Some famous Pakistan Army officers who either were recruited by British or graduated at Sandhurst Academy from the British Raj period are.

1. Ayub Khan - General later President of Pakistan in the 1960s. He was a Sandhurst graduate class 1928 and WW2 veteran of 5th Punjab Regiment. He saw combat against Japs in Burma. He would reach rank of Colonel. I doubt he would got to rank of Colonel in US Army in 1930s to 1945.

Ayub Khan (President of Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

with the young Queen Elizabeth in 1960s London on official visit to UK

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BBC interview in 1965 at the dawn of Pakistan Indian War



What is clear the overriding influence of Britain on these men who were products of British military institutions and these even in 2015 are alive as Sandhurst still is prefered officer school

With the late First Lady Jacquiline Kennedy again in 1960s

Click the image to open in full size.

Edit: I reiterate. I do not want to turn this thread into a slinging match. I want to look at the British bias in recruiting men ( the reasons are not of interest ) and the effects of this on Punjabi and Pashtuns of Pakistan today. This includes the effects on society, politics and class dynamics within Pakistan. That is the referance for this thread full stop.

The officer class and military traditions created by British took root amongst Punjabi and Pashtuns have had profound effects on the way and direction Pakistan has gone and will go in
2015. That is the remit of this thread period.

The British derived military continues to have a manifest affect on Pakistan today. Pakistan today is nuclear weapon state and the Pakistan Army Strategic Plans Division ( SPD ) has over 100 nuclear weapons deployed. The military is dominant in defence policy therefore this thread is vital in understanding a very important issue.
British didn't have any bias in recruiting from the North West. Before 1857 majority of recruits came from All over India such as Bihar and UP for the Bengal Regiment and the Madras Regiment. Recruitment from the North West areas increased as the soldiers from the former regions took part in the Rebellion.
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Old August 5th, 2015, 04:11 PM   #70
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A tiny village called Dulmial has the distinction of providing more men to the war effort ( both WW wars ) than most areas of the empire even possibly matching parts of UK.
During the war almost every single able bodied man from this village signed up and fought in the British Army. A village with about 850 males had 460 men in the British Empire Army. If you exclude old, the young that would equate to almost all the able bodied signed up to join the British Empire Army. Nine men lost their lives. In memory of this service, by this tiny community in dry mountains of Chakwal, the British Army provided a cannon in 1925 as tribute to the fallen of the village which was placed in the village square where it still occupies pride of place today.

The descendants of Captain Malik Ghulam Mohammed live on today and the entire village still cherishes the memory of those men who never came back but perished in trenches of the Western Front.

Click the image to open in full size.




Click the image to open in full size.



A very interesting video presentation on the history of the Dulmial village by Dr Malik grandson of Captain Malik Mohammed at University of Nottingham.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=foxGFp7mB1Y[/ame]

The Centre for Hidden Histories » The Dulmial Gun
https://www.journalism.co.uk/press-r...-/s66/a562999/
The Pakistani village that gave its sons to fight for Britain | Daily Mail Online


List of Victoria Cross holders - Pakistan


1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Haidar_%28VC%29
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khudadad_Khan
3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Hafiz_%28VC%29
4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Dast
5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahamad_Khan
6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sher_Shah_%28VC%29
7) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazal_Din


I have entirely overlooked the contribution to the empire by a small community called Hazara. The Hazara are the descendants of Gengiz Khan and his Monglian warriors. Pockets of them were left behind as the Mongol tide receded. I am presently looking in to their role in the empire as being warriors by nature they left behind proud legacy.

The British recruited Hazara Mongols from what is now Quetta, Pakistan in the early 20th Century in the form of the 106th Hazara Poineers. The Hazara still retain their Mongolian features although most follow the Shia branch of Islam. An example is Flt.Lt Changazi later Air Marshal

Click the image to open in full size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaras
106th Hazara Pioneers | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online


Cap badge Hazara Pioneers

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A marker on the North West Frontier

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Click the image to open in full size.

Capt.
Dost Mohd Khan, IDSM and Bar, 106th Hazara Pioneers

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Subedar Gird Ali "The 106th Hazara Pioneers

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British and native officers of 106 Hazara Pioneers

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With regret I have to say today with the rising sectarian Sunni/Shia tensions this community has come under much pressure. However even today large numbers sign up for military service including women. The old British pattern of recruiting from Pashtun/Punjabi areas or communties ( including Hazara ) is still in place despite some attempts to diversify recruitment.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

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