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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:31 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
France didn't surrender??!!??
The German losses in the French Campaign (per day)were severe (not far short of the later rate of loss on the Russian Front) but because the campaign was short they appear to be very light indeed. If the campaign had continued German losses would have been crippling. In return for an Armistice the Germans kept out of Vichy. They did not offer this concession out of the goodness of their heart but in order to save themselves further losses.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:40 AM   #442

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
it was an ambush--not a fair fight
I believe he got hit from the side...
There are no fair fights. Just fights.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:57 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by mkenny View Post
The German losses in the French Campaign (per day)were severe (not far short of the later rate of loss on the Russian Front) but because the campaign was short they appear to be very light indeed. If the campaign had continued German losses would have been crippling. In return for an Armistice the Germans kept out of Vichy. They did not offer this concession out of the goodness of their heart but in order to save themselves further losses.
Why did the campaign go short?
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:50 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by mkenny View Post
The German losses in the French Campaign (per day)were severe (not far short of the later rate of loss on the Russian Front) but because the campaign was short they appear to be very light indeed. If the campaign had continued German losses would have been crippling. In return for an Armistice the Germans kept out of Vichy. They did not offer this concession out of the goodness of their heart but in order to save themselves further losses.
would've been crippling?? that is pure guessing
then they occupied Vichy France
with their poor tanks and poor soldiers
they defeated France and Britain with their poor tanks and poor soldiers--in a Blitzkrieg!!

Last edited by Buckshot Roberts; March 5th, 2018 at 10:53 AM.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 11:02 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
France didn't surrender??!!??
France did surrender. And only part of France was occupied initially. An entire region of France commonly called Vichy France was left free of Axis forces till November 1942, which is why the entire nation of France being labeled red, occupied by Axis forces in Sep 42, is wrong.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 11:07 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
would've been crippling?? that is pure guessing
then they occupied Vichy France
with their poor tanks and poor soldiers
they defeated France and Britain with their poor tanks and poor soldiers--in a Blitzkrieg!!
They occupied Vichy France AFTER your map said they did. Which is why we're saying the map you used was terrible.

Its well known that during the Battle of France the German armor was by and large not nearly as good, "head to head," as French tanks, who also had more of them. Germany did better because better communication (French didn't even have radios in their tank forces, they relied on foot messengers or flags, or hand and arm signals), better integration in combined arms (working directly with infantry and armor in kampfgruppe, with radio support to call in close air support), and because they massed their tanks into Panzergruppe while the French method was to be disseminated out among their infantry divisions in piecemeal fashion (which is also what the Russians did in '41, thanks to Stalin, and what the Germans effectively did after 1943).
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Old March 5th, 2018, 11:11 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by phil1904 View Post
Why did the campaign go short?
Because a plane crashed.

Then afterwards Hitler got pigeon holed by Manstein, a lesser general, who essentially performed a coup against the the most educated and respected members of the German General Staff who thought the Manstein plan was suicide.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 11:12 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
There are no fair fights. Just fights.
When Germany fights "unfairly" as in Poland, France, year 1 Soviet Union, its genius, pure evidence of German superiority. When it happens against them, then its back to not being fair.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 11:47 AM   #449
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About your post418. I didn't quite understand a couple of little things.
Quote:
mkenny.....
The claimed 88s are the ones that only 1 single man claims were there, the account of Hans von Luck.

There is not a single scrap of evidence or any supporting account that mentions these 88s. The sum total of all the evidence that there were any Flak 88s (note Flak and not Pak) is the account of one single man, That is it. Nothing else.
I don't understand what you mean.
The French sources clearly mention this and it's a source of the commune of Cagny.
I think they know their own history. Don't you?
http://www.dday-overlord.com/bataill...calvados/cagny
Translated by me:
Quote:
"On 6 June 1944, the commune of Cagny in Calvados was occupied by elements belonging to the second battalion of Panzergrenadier-Regiment 125 (21. Panzer-Division) commanded by Hauptmann Kuron. These units are reinforced by 88 mm cannon batteries of the Luftwaffen-Artillerie-Regiment 16 belonging to the 16. Feld-Division, the guns of the Panzerjäger-Abteilung 1039 and the Panzerjäger Abteilung 1053. These elements are placed under the responsibility of Major von Luck who commands the Panzergrenadier-Regiment 125: it is the Kampfgruppe (inter-armed battle group) von Luck.

On 18 July, the Allies launched Operation Goodwood to capture Caen: the offensive began with a massive bombardment that destroyed the vast majority of German positions. The municipality of Cagny is located in the area coded "M" by the Allied aviation industry. The air attack, one of the most important fighting in Western Europe, destroyed many German positions and deeply disrupted the line of defence: 650 tons of bombs were dropped on Sector "M". Only a few isolated units manage to avoid damage. Major von Luck, who returned from Paris after being hospitalized there for three days, attended the air raid and immediately sought to take stock of the elements that were still in a combat state. He was surprised to discover that a battery of four 88 mm anti-aircraft guns, an 88 mm Pak 43 anti-tank gun and a Panther tank had not been hit. He prepares them immediately for battle.
"
Quote:
mKenny
In reality von Rosen led his Tigers forward and was struck by return fire. These losses so rattled him that he simply turned around and retreated.
Maybe, but the truth is, you're just speculating.
Again I don't understand. Sources mention these fratricidal shots.


Quote:
"At approximately 10:15, the 2nd Battalion Irish Guards of the Guards Armoured Division, is 2,000 metres from Cagny when four of its Sherman tanks are destroyed by 88 mm guns. The whole regiment is fixed until 4 p. m., then he receives the order to bypass the village by overflowing largely towards Emiéville but he also records direct blows by the 88 mm guns.............................................. .................................................. ..................... The engagement of the Luftwaffe artillerymen, little trained in the identification of terrestrial targets, is most certainly at the origin of fratricidal fire on two tanks Tiger Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503.

On the evening of 18 July, the 29th Armoured Brigade lost 126 tanks. On the night of 18-19 July, the British revised their targets downwards and set limited targets. The 2nd Battalion Irish Guards managed to capture Cagny during the day and the Germans reorganized themselves along a line linking Frénouville to Emiéville."
Here is another source in English that tells us about the group Von Rosen.
4 tanks against a battalion......
http://www.dday-overlord.com/en/batt...ties/emieville

Quote:
"Gorman then reached the Cagny-Emiéville road from where he could see at a distance of about 200 meters four armored tanks stationed, the crews disembarked: a Tigre I tank, a Tiger II and two Panzer IV, belonging to the Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503. This is the first time he sees the famous Tiger II, dubbed the Royal Tiger. "
Fighting is very difficult for Sherman tank crews engaged against a Tiger.
The Sherman shells are ineffective from the front and the Sherman crew is reduced to accomplishing a feat by throwing their tank against the Tiger.

Quote:
"After a quick discussion with his crew to decide what tactics to take, he ordered the assault to apply very short range fires and to take his opponents speed. His shooter-pointer Scholes fired an explosive shell on the Tiger II at a distance of about fifty meters in order to destroy his sighting systems, as the 75 mm piercing shells had no effect against the thick armor of the German tank. Two additional shells are fired but the Royal Tiger is not destroyed. Suddenly Scholes announces that the cannon is stopped, the Sherman can no longer open fire when he has just engaged the fight against a much more powerful tank. Gorman then orders his driver: “Driver, ram!”. The “Ballyragget” engages at full speed and strikes the left rear chassis of the German tank. The shock was so brutal that the crew of the German tank immediately evacuated."
The Sherman (right) of the 2nd Armoured Irish Guards after ramming a King Tiger (left) during the fighting near Cagny.
Click the image to open in full size.

Unfortunately for the British, things don't always happen that way.

Sherman.jpg

Quote:
"The other German tanks then take their aim on the Sherman of Lieutenant Gorman who then orders the evacuation of his tank. They are heading all the way to a cornfield. On his own initiative, one of Gorman’s subordinates, Sergeant Harbinson, opened fire on the three German tanks in order to divert their attention. The Tiger I adjusts his shot and touches Sergeant Harbinson’s Sherman, causing the instant death of the pilot, Lance-Corporal Watson, and radio operator, Davis".
I still don't understand what you're trying to prove.

Sherman Vs Tiger.jpg

Indeed you make a very personal comment of a few lines after having quoted a long text in testimony
What are you trying to prove?
That some German tanks have retired from several dozen British tanks?
So what?
Do you know that during Operation Goodwood, the British and Canadians committed 1100 tanks and lost 317, while the Germans lost between 75 and 100 tanks?

I don't see anything in the description of these fights that would suggest that Tigers tanks were easy opponents to beat.

Units commited in the Battle of Cagny

British
3rd Royal Tank Regiment, 29th Armoured Brigade, 11th Armoured Division

2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, 29th Armoured Brigade, 11th Armoured Division

23rd Hussars, 29th Armoured Brigade, 11th Armoured Division

2nd Battalion Irish Guards, 5th Guards Armoured Brigade, Guards Armoured Division

German
Luftwaffen-Artillerie-Regiment 16, 16. Feld-Division (L)

II/Panzergrenadier-Regiment 125, 21. Panzer-Division

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 1039

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 1053

Last edited by phil1904; March 5th, 2018 at 11:51 AM.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 12:46 PM   #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aggienation View Post
They occupied Vichy France AFTER your map said they did. Which is why we're saying the map you used was terrible.

Its well known that during the Battle of France the German armor was by and large not nearly as good, "head to head," as French tanks, who also had more of them. Germany did better because better communication (French didn't even have radios in their tank forces, they relied on foot messengers or flags, or hand and arm signals), better integration in combined arms (working directly with infantry and armor in kampfgruppe, with radio support to call in close air support), and because they massed their tanks into Panzergruppe while the French method was to be disseminated out among their infantry divisions in piecemeal fashion (which is also what the Russians did in '41, thanks to Stalin, and what the Germans effectively did after 1943).
but I thought the Germans were not that good
the French and Brits were better --somehow
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