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Old March 5th, 2018, 02:21 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
and still he beat the crap out of the Brits...blew that column to hell
fell??!!!
Just like Wittman got blown to crap later on and his battalion destroyed.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 02:22 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
they kicked the Brits off the continent--
the French surrendered.......o, that's not that big of a victory??!! really??
Israel never won a war but they beat the crap out of the Arabs-undoubtedly
especially the Six Day War
The Israelis won the Six Day War. The British won WW2. The Germans lost WW2. You seeing a pattern yet? Probably not, because discipline and record keeping.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 02:29 PM   #463

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
please see my previous post
Wittman didn't do much hahahahahhahahahhaah
Let me tell you the story of the KV that stopped the German Army for 48 hours...

WWII is full of heroics like that. I'm always impressed by tales of Soviets ramming German planes. Thats hard core.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 03:02 PM   #464

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
here at the 30.40 mark, a Brit that fought Wittman says:
''I could not but admire him, he was tough, he was bold, and ruthless....a fine example of a German tank commander''
Given that Wittman is being described as a "German tank commander," I'd think that the analysis is not a serious record on whether or not Wittman was the best tank commander ever. As Germany and Britain likely would have different expectations on what they'd expect from their own tank commanders. Being felt to be a fine German tank commander only means that Wittman demonstrated what the Allies expected out of the Germans... and that in and of itself does not prove quality.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
''I fired at 100 hundred yards and the shot just bounced off''..his enemy said this!!
And what kind of tank was he in?

A Stuart light tank? A Tetrarch light tank? Neither of which were intended to deal enemy tanks?

A Cromwell or Churchill or Grant tank? Mid war tanks that were generally under-armed?

An early war Sherman with a low velocity 75mm gun?

Or a late model Sherman with a 76mm gun or a Firefly variant? Or Comet? Late ware medium tanks that were better equipped to deal with German heavy tanks...

Or the M26 Pershing, a US built Heavy Tank that only had 3 confirmed engagements with the Tiger I?

Because this is important. For it this shot was taken by an Allied light tank or a mid war medium/heavy tank, the Tiger I's defense wouldn't be THAT impressive, as they were precisely what the Tiger I was intended to counter. However, as the late model Shermans, the Comet, and the Pershing came into service, vehicles that were all either given bigger guns or thicker armor in response to the Tiger I, that the Tiger began to encounter tanks on the Western Front that could deal with it...

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
I guess this vet is lying??!!...eyewitness/firsthand knowledge is no good
Not lying... merely mistaken on facts, details, or the complete picture...

Remember that just about EVERY German tank from 1943 onwards was identified as a Tiger I, despite the fact that MOST of them were actually late model Panzer IVs. The average Allied tank crewman was not the most adept at identifying German armor and often didn't have the time to go through whatever manuals he had been issued to identify German equipment.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:06 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
''I could not but admire him, he was tough, he was bold, and ruthless....a fine example of a German tank commander''
''I fired at 100 hundred yards and the shot just bounced off''..his enemy said this!!
Wittman the DESTROYER
I guess this vet is lying??!!...eyewitness/firsthand knowledge is no good
In this case (Pat Dyas) not lying so much as having problems with memory. His only contact with Wittmann was some 60 seconds as the Tiger rumbled past him on its way into Villers. That is the sum total of his experience of Wittmann. At the time he never knew who was in the Tiger and up until the 1970s he had never even heard of Wittmann. Wittmann was unknown to any Allied soldier and all the hype about him is a post-war construction driven by Tamiya and others who made Tiger tank models.
I spoke with the man (John Cloudsley-Thompson) who was in the tank right next to Dyas that day and his account differs substantially from the way Dyas remembers it. What is 99% certain is that the Tiger drove past Dyas who was having problems with a crew member in his tank. Dyas then drove out and attempted to follow Wittmann but was struck by a round fired by Wittmann who had rotated his turret to the rear for just such a sneak attack.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:27 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
Given that Wittman is being described as a "German tank commander," I'd think that the analysis is not a serious record on whether or not Wittman was the best tank commander ever. As Germany and Britain likely would have different expectations on what they'd expect from their own tank commanders. Being felt to be a fine German tank commander only means that Wittman demonstrated what the Allies expected out of the Germans... and that in and of itself does not prove quality.



And what kind of tank was he in?

A Stuart light tank? A Tetrarch light tank? Neither of which were intended to deal enemy tanks?

A Cromwell or Churchill or Grant tank? Mid war tanks that were generally under-armed?

An early war Sherman with a low velocity 75mm gun?

Or a late model Sherman with a 76mm gun or a Firefly variant? Or Comet? Late ware medium tanks that were better equipped to deal with German heavy tanks...

Or the M26 Pershing, a US built Heavy Tank that only had 3 confirmed engagements with the Tiger I?

Because this is important. For it this shot was taken by an Allied light tank or a mid war medium/heavy tank, the Tiger I's defense wouldn't be THAT impressive, as they were precisely what the Tiger I was intended to counter. However, as the late model Shermans, the Comet, and the Pershing came into service, vehicles that were all either given bigger guns or thicker armor in response to the Tiger I, that the Tiger began to encounter tanks on the Western Front that could deal with it...



Not lying... merely mistaken on facts, details, or the complete picture...

Remember that just about EVERY German tank from 1943 onwards was identified as a Tiger I, despite the fact that MOST of them were actually late model Panzer IVs. The average Allied tank crewman was not the most adept at identifying German armor and often didn't have the time to go through whatever manuals he had been issued to identify German equipment.

All that effort by the allies to respond to the Tiger, the fear created amongst (certainly western) Tank crews, all for a piece of over rated junk? hmmm
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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:29 PM   #467
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zincwarrior
Let me tell you the story of the KV that stopped the German Army for 48 hours...
Indeed we see several examples of this type during WW2
Heavy Tanks in some contexts have proven to be formidable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...ne_Soviet_tank

Only one French tank B1 destroyed 13 Germans tanks in 2 hours (2 panzer IV's and 11 panzer III's) during the battle of Stonne (May 1940). It sustained 140 hits from anti tank fire.

Quote:
WWII is full of heroics like that. I'm always impressed by tales of Soviets ramming German planes. Thats hard core.
However, this does not mean that heavy tanks had a significant strategic influence, even if it is difficult to evaluate.
It was almost nil for the French in 1940 but not for the Soviets.
Indeed the KV1 were a real problem for the Wehrmacht in 1941, especially at the Battle of Smolensk (10 July, 10 September 1941).
The Soviets succeeded by using this material in task forces to somehow " engulf " the Blitzkrieg and to block for two months the advance of a powerful Panzergruppen to Moscow.
We can make a parallel with the Battle of Normandy.

In fact, the heavy tank is only part of the WW2 belligerents' armoured arsenal and does not provide all the solutions regarding the effectiveness of the use of the armoured units.
Not forgetting the joint cooperation with Air Forces and infantry.
Moreover, its power often leads to a high weight that hinders its tactical mobility and often its strategic mobility.
Its weight can also cause mechanical weaknesses (e. g. suspension problems) and requires a high fuel consumption

Last edited by phil1904; March 5th, 2018 at 09:32 PM.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 09:40 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by aghart View Post
All that effort by the allies to respond to the Tiger, the fear created amongst (certainly western) Tank crews, all for a piece of over rated junk? hmmm
I see no fear or reluctance to move forward and engage here:


2nd Fife & Forfar Yeomanry 11th Armoured Division. 1944

Aug 6th.
Two Tiger tanks succeeded in getting through and knocking out 2 tanks out of a troop in C Sqn. These Tigers were just beginning to cause casualties to the infantry when Sgt. Scott of C Sqn. with his troop arrived and succeeded in getting his tanks into position and destroying one of the tanks and damaging the other to such an extent that it withdrew.


Aug 7th.

Meanwhile a number of Tiger tanks had established themselves on the high ground on our eastern flank at Le Haut Periere( M.R. 7233) and were able to engage A Sqn. from the rear at a range of about 2500 yds. These Tigers quickly caused A Sqn. 5 tank casualties.
Major Gilmore then went forward with a troop of B Sqn.to try and engage these tanks and succeeded in knocking out one of them


And even in the Hitler Channel Tiger video posted earlier Pat Dyas went out and followed Wittmann. 'Fear' never stopped him moving forward to engage.

Last edited by mkenny; March 5th, 2018 at 09:46 PM.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:28 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Th'AnchoriticSybarite View Post
They had a huge feature article comparing tank production--Soviet vs German vs Brit vs US. Their crucial point was that the difference was not in the capabilities of any individual tank but the production capabilities. For every single tank rolling off the factory floor in Germany, the Brits could build 10, the Soviets 100 (of course due to sloppy workmanship half of them had to be dragged out and discarded; 50 is still more than 1) and the US 1000.

.
Unless you are talking specifically about Tigers (of which there were only about 2000 produced if one includes both Tiger Is and IIs) , the production figure ratio is more like : a bit less for the UK than for Germany, about twice more for the US or the USSR than Germany....

or roughly 50 000 for the brits, 60 000 for the germans, 100 000 for the US or the soviets

These figures would vary depending on what you include in them (the above includes self propelled guns) and your definitions... An AFV (armored fighting vehicle is not necesserily a tank).
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Old March 6th, 2018, 02:01 AM   #470

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Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
WWII is full of heroics like that. I'm always impressed by tales of Soviets ramming German planes. Thats hard core.
How about a British Sherman ramming a Tiger II
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Last edited by redcoat; March 6th, 2018 at 02:10 AM.
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