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Old March 6th, 2018, 04:25 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by mkenny View Post
In this case (Pat Dyas) not lying so much as having problems with memory. His only contact with Wittmann was some 60 seconds as the Tiger rumbled past him on its way into Villers. That is the sum total of his experience of Wittmann. At the time he never knew who was in the Tiger and up until the 1970s he had never even heard of Wittmann. Wittmann was unknown to any Allied soldier and all the hype about him is a post-war construction driven by Tamiya and others who made Tiger tank models.
I spoke with the man (John Cloudsley-Thompson) who was in the tank right next to Dyas that day and his account differs substantially from the way Dyas remembers it. What is 99% certain is that the Tiger drove past Dyas who was having problems with a crew member in his tank. Dyas then drove out and attempted to follow Wittmann but was struck by a round fired by Wittmann who had rotated his turret to the rear for just such a sneak attack.
if god himself told you Wittmann was a great soldier, you would say god is lying
''god you are lying''

it's right THERE on video!! you can't refute it

so--it comes back to bite all of you who bad mouthed a brave VET--Wittmann--while I, Phil, others, AND the man who was THERE praised Wittmann
caps for emphasis only

Last edited by Buckshot Roberts; March 6th, 2018 at 05:03 AM.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 04:34 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
Given that Wittman is being described as a "German tank commander," I'd think that the analysis is not a serious record on whether or not Wittman was the best tank commander ever. As Germany and Britain likely would have different expectations on what they'd expect from their own tank commanders. Being felt to be a fine German tank commander only means that Wittman demonstrated what the Allies expected out of the Germans... and that in and of itself does not prove quality.



And what kind of tank was he in?

A Stuart light tank? A Tetrarch light tank? Neither of which were intended to deal enemy tanks?

A Cromwell or Churchill or Grant tank? Mid war tanks that were generally under-armed?

An early war Sherman with a low velocity 75mm gun?

Or a late model Sherman with a 76mm gun or a Firefly variant? Or Comet? Late ware medium tanks that were better equipped to deal with German heavy tanks...

Or the M26 Pershing, a US built Heavy Tank that only had 3 confirmed engagements with the Tiger I?

Because this is important. For it this shot was taken by an Allied light tank or a mid war medium/heavy tank, the Tiger I's defense wouldn't be THAT impressive, as they were precisely what the Tiger I was intended to counter. However, as the late model Shermans, the Comet, and the Pershing came into service, vehicles that were all either given bigger guns or thicker armor in response to the Tiger I, that the Tiger began to encounter tanks on the Western Front that could deal with it...



Not lying... merely mistaken on facts, details, or the complete picture...

Remember that just about EVERY German tank from 1943 onwards was identified as a Tiger I, despite the fact that MOST of them were actually late model Panzer IVs. The average Allied tank crewman was not the most adept at identifying German armor and often didn't have the time to go through whatever manuals he had been issued to identify German equipment.
see post # 471
and what's your military background? or do you just read 'books' on Tiger tanks and bad mouth vets?
I was in for 8 years
I've seen arty and air strikes
I've seen a BB fire its main guns and heard/saw the tremendous impact
I've done landings from AAVs and using the old rope ladders like they did in WW2--I drove an AAV and Hummer
I've done raids/patrols/etc
I've seen the tanks fire rounds--at night and watched the exploding impacts
heard the tanks clanking and grinding
saw AT missiles--had one go very close because the ATers didn't know where we were
I've done Desert training/exercises
I've done long, boring vehicle/ground movements
I've dug fighting holes/hurry up and wait/all night movements /stream crossings
I was at sea on 4 different ships--totaled over a year and a half--6 months on an LPH doing chopper exercises
rappelled/fast roped from choppers
etc
I've lived the military life
..do you just read books on Tiger tanks?

Last edited by Buckshot Roberts; March 6th, 2018 at 05:04 AM.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 04:59 AM   #473

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
if god himself told you Wittmann was a great soldier, you would say god is lying
''god you are lying''
it's right there on video!! you can't refute it

so--it comes back to bite all of you who bad mouthed a brave VET--Wittmann--while I, Phil and others praised him---AND the man who was THERE
caps for emphasis only
A German historian called Schneider is very critical of Wittmann's lone drive into Villers Bocage, as in his view it alerted the British in the town and because of this they were able to defeat a major attack to regain the town later in the afternoon with heavy German tank and infantry losses.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 05:13 AM   #474

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
see post # 471
and what's your military background? or do you just read 'books' on Tiger tanks and bad mouth vets?
I was in for 8 years
I've seen arty and air strikes
I've seen a BB fire its main guns and heard/saw the tremendous impact
I've done landings from AAVs and using the old rope ladders like they did in WW2--I drove an AAV and Hummer
I've done raids/patrols/etc
I've seen the tanks fire rounds--at night and watched the exploding impacts
heard the tanks clanking and grinding
saw AT missiles--had one go very close because the ATers didn't know where we were
I've done Desert training/exercises
I've done long, boring vehicle/ground movements
I've dug fighting holes/hurry up and wait/all night movements /stream crossings
I was at sea on 4 different ships--totaled over a year and a half--6 months on an LPH doing chopper exercises
rappelled/fast roped from choppers
etc
I've lived the military life
..do you just read books on Tiger tanks?

Good for you. Then you will have no trouble understanding me when I tell you that this is your final warning - either turn down the aggressive posting and start participating on this forum with a measure of respect for the other posters - even if you don't agree with them - or you will be removed. Simple as.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 05:32 AM   #475

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Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
A German historian called Schneider is very critical of Wittmann's lone drive into Villers Bocage, as in his view it alerted the British in the town and because of this they were able to defeat a major attack to regain the town later in the afternoon with heavy German tank and infantry losses.
This is so, and it is a pointer as to why Wittman, though serving from the very beginning of the war, had not progressed as far up the ranks as might be expected by his reputation. He was, I think, an excellent commander of an individual tank, but was lacking the ability to command much more than his own tank.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 05:51 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
A German historian called Schneider is very critical of Wittmann's lone drive into Villers Bocage, as in his view it alerted the British in the town and because of this they were able to defeat a major attack to regain the town later in the afternoon with heavy German tank and infantry losses.
I agree totally ...good call
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Old March 6th, 2018, 05:51 AM   #477
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This is so, and it is a pointer as to why Wittman, though serving from the very beginning of the war, had not progressed as far up the ranks as might be expected by his reputation. He was, I think, an excellent commander of an individual tank, but was lacking the ability to command much more than his own tank.
you are absolutely right...I can't disagree.....at all.....we had people like that when I served
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Old March 6th, 2018, 05:51 AM   #478

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Originally Posted by aghart View Post
All that effort by the allies to respond to the Tiger, the fear created amongst (certainly western) Tank crews, all for a piece of over rated junk? hmmm
Being "overrated" does not make it bad. The Tiger I was an excellent tank, but like all vehicles it had weaknesses that the allies overcame.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 06:19 AM   #479

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
see post # 471
Attacking people for disagreeing with your conclusion doesn't prove a point. It only proves an inability to deal with facts.

And keep in mind that military men have been praised from time to time by various people with regard to either their actions or their personality, but that said praise is NOT to be used as proof of ability. Winston Churchill once complemented Joseph Joffre as a lone man who represented France. That did NOT mean that Joffre was the greatest general of WWI. The comment merely showed Churchill's opinion.

Which then means that the posted that you put up is NOT a comprehensive analysis of Wittman's abilities as a tank commander, but merely showed one man's opinion. He may have had a favorable opinion, but that opinion does not make Wittman the greatest tanker ever... Especially when one considers that much of Wittman's reputation was likely exaggerated by the German government for propaganda purposes.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
and what's your military background?
That is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not the Tiger I was a good tank or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckshot Roberts View Post
or do you just read 'books' on Tiger tanks and bad mouth vets?
Just because someone has served, that doesn't mean that their opinion is either right or the only one of value...

And those books on the Tiger and related tanks of WW2 can be critical as they can present the abilities of the tank in question with all its strengths and weaknesses. Especially as modern military training likely doesn't cover anything on confronting a weapons system that hasn't been used since the late 40s.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 06:24 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
Attacking people for disagreeing with your conclusion doesn't prove a point. It only proves an inability to deal with facts.

And keep in mind that military men have been praised from time to time by various people with regard to either their actions or their personality, but that said praise is NOT to be used as proof of ability. Winston Churchill once complemented Joseph Joffre as a lone man who represented France. That did NOT mean that Joffre was the greatest general of WWI. The comment merely showed Churchill's opinion.

Which then means that the posted that you put up is NOT a comprehensive analysis of Wittman's abilities as a tank commander, but merely showed one man's opinion. He may have had a favorable opinion, but that opinion does not make Wittman the greatest tanker ever... Especially when one considers that much of Wittman's reputation was likely exaggerated by the German government for propaganda purposes.



That is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not the Tiger I was a good tank or not.



Just because someone has served, that doesn't mean that their opinion is either right or the only one of value...

And those books on the Tiger and related tanks of WW2 can be critical as they can present the abilities of the tank in question with all its strengths and weaknesses. Especially as modern military training likely doesn't cover anything on confronting a weapons system that hasn't been used since the late 40s.
you did call me/insinuated I was a book nerd??
I'd have to agree with you on all your points....good call on the Tiger tanks/etc
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