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Old January 10th, 2017, 03:04 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
...he only did so when he had used up the ammunition to kill Frenchmen with....
Another reason why he had no choice but to surrender ?

So much for holding out eh ?


The man was a hero


Quote:
...I guess the Enterprise just used its teleporters to get the men ashore in Africa and Sicily and in Italy, since the ability to land men the normal way didn't exist until 1944....

Landing men was not the problem



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...but that represents fair treatment....

No it represents a political appointment

The same way the the Secretary General of the UN is never a citixen of any of the Security Council members



Quote:
...the original intention was that the British would breakout and the Americans would protect the flank...
The original plan was always for a broad front


Quote:
...that only works in a situation where the enemy does what you want them to. If they don't, either in terms of tactics or strategy, it fails. It was tried in 1914 with the Schlieffen Plan. That failed...
So ?
Offensives don't always work even when the principals of warfare are adhered to

Nevertheless, a key principal in warfare if to concentrate your resources

Btw, the Schlieffen plan failed because not enough resources were allocated to the right wing...the Germans didn't concentrate enough
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:24 AM   #272

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I guess the Enterprise just used its teleporters to get the men ashore in Africa and Sicily and in Italy, since the ability to land men the normal way didn't exist until 1944.
Yes it did. The Germans were preparing for a invasion of Britain using the same means, albeit with less panache and scale, in 1940. But that only refers to amphibious landings in a certain style. The Gallipoli campaign of 1915 involved putting men ashore in two separate areas, one that shows that landing craft are a convenience rather than an essential, since rowboats were used to good effect in both the main landing sequences. And there's the nub of it, because putting men ashore by rowboat had been an idea used by armies for a very, very long time previously.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:36 AM   #273
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Here's a video about french involvment in 1940, especially about operation dynamo:



Her's a funny video that I just found where french sailors are parading in N-Y in 1943:



In 1943, curiously, US where not talking about cheese eating surrender monkeys
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Old January 12th, 2017, 11:35 AM   #274

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Originally Posted by Balian View Post
I mean considering that they have the best military record of any European country. In 800 years France has won 132 wars, lost 43 and drawn 10, making them the most successful nation in the history of Europe military wise.

It seems to me that some people base all of French military history on World War II.

Look it up. Its true
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #275

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^ Absolutely. I was just making the 'bullet' points. IMO France in wwii is well deserved of its reputation. Not only did they loose bigly, but they were hopeful the UK would also to save some of their tarnished rep. Some chicken, some neck?


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France ?

Which "France" You're talking about ?

The oney more than happy to collaborate with Nazis getting rid of some disturbing Jew origin neighbours or the one dying on the beaches of Dunkerque to make sure most of Brits cross the chanel ?
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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:33 PM   #276

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^ don't get too carried away w how much influence the French force had on the evac. And your "neighbors" comment - really?


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Old January 12th, 2017, 01:45 PM   #277

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^ don't get too carried away w how much influence the French force had on the evac. And your "neighbors" comment - really?


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I'm not that much "carried", to be honest. It's simply that French soldiers kept positions knowing that they most probably will die, hundreds of yard from the beach. While others, Brits, French, Belgians were evacuating.

I just dislike now and then "France". The same way I sometimes dislike "Britain" or "US" or "Russia".

What "France" ? Those fighting or the colabos ?

Both are "France".

Last edited by deaf tuner; January 12th, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 03:16 PM   #278

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Its a bit funny how people make fun of the French military


The OP wonders why French mil has a bad rap. So in this case, despite valiant efforts by some soldiers & citizens of French nationality, the overall consensus is that the French Republic & the military leadership of, was a failure of historic proportions.

Thus books like this:

Click the image to open in full size.


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Old January 12th, 2017, 04:55 PM   #279

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=Poly;2674183]
Quote:
Yes...by winning the war and defeating Nazi Germany
Ike wanted to bypass Paris, it would has let enough times to German for a lot of destruction and oppresion, free French went for it.


QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Quote:
The Free French also received equipment from Britain and yes, they were barely in the war
Not as barely as you claim, as usual you've got a mediocre and biased knowledge.
Bir Hackeim was very important, they, maybe saved the 8th army of a complete destruction.
In Tunisia French and British helped americans to prevent a complete rout in Kaserine and French mountains troops were a lot of appreciated in this campaign.
Ike advocated for reamarment of French, here is an interesting quote " i ever wonder if Roosevelt makes war to German or to French"
They played an important role during the campaign of Italy and a major role in Provence landing.
According Patton the 2d DB was his best armored division (maybe with his third one) and Leclerc wasn't "barely" in his manoeuvre in Jura besides the liberation of Paris had a very important politic role.

About French resistance, Ike was very clear, "it represented a help of around 15 divisions", mainly of course, concerning intelligence.
For instance, allies were very well informed by French resistance in Normandy.

Quote:
That's not the point though - De Gaulle would have you believe that France was liberated by Frenchmen with no assistance;[
QUOTE][/QUOTE]

First, it's important to point out that you claim many wrong things by your own and that this is influenced by questionable prejudices.

Never De gaulle thought that France was liberated only by French, it was the meaning of his call since June 1940.
You ever don't know this.....

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Where has ANYONE doubted the courage of the French fighting soldier ?????
Germans considered that generally, the best western allied soldiers were French, they were much more respectful than you about them.
"Only French are able to win such stupefying victories" Hitler 1942
"The soldiers i fear the more are French" Kesselring 1943
i can multiply Germans general quotes about French soldiers, for instance: "the best soldiers i've ever fought during the two world war" general balck.

I don't intend to be of the same bad faith than you and to deny the desaster of 1940, panics of french troops during this campaign and to speak ill of americans or British in the same way you speak ill of French.
I have not an excessive and nationalist mindset.and i don't pretend to claim that French are supermen.
It would be very easy (and silly) to diss about americans for kasserine, Pearl harbor Philippine campaign of 1942 or about British who took the bus for Dunkirk and to Crete or about Russians for their defeats in 1941.

I can't resist to notice that often your argues are of poor qualities and irrelevant besides i wonder what do yo mean exactly?
Do you pretend that French would be subhuman or untermenshen if you prefer?
French would be coward, weak, hypocrit, liar, ungrateful......
What's you problem with French, was you ex wife a French?

Wow @Poly, i couldn't deam of a best argue of how it's stupid to make fun of French military than your attitude in this thread.
You even reproached to french that they asked to British to add a "E" to concord, what a crime!!!!!

Your behaviour is an excellent argue for those who denounce how unfair and silly is to moke on over people using stupid cliche.


Last edited by phil1904; January 12th, 2017 at 04:57 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #280

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Another reason why he had no choice but to surrender ?

So much for holding out eh ?

The man was a hero
If his only threat was the Resistance, he could hold out. He might not have much, BUT if the French Resistance is spending so much of its time shooting Frenchmen, they wouldn't be a threat to his forces in Paris.

And again, why is shooting as many Frenchmen as you can and only surrendering once you've run out of ammunition qualification for being a hero? Sure, Paris didn't burn... but the criticism of Choltitz is over his intentions. Which isn't so clear cut...

Choltitz in his memoirs claims he never had any intention of burning Paris. However, documents that include his communiques would indicate that he wasn't quite the "honorable man" his memoirs make him out to be. And others from the Paris saga in their own memoirs dispute Choltitz's claims as well. The Swedish ambassador goes as far to claim that Choltitz would have followed the order if not for the Swedish ambassador's persuading Choltitz.

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Landing men was not the problem
The fact still remains that Allied armies were landed and supplied in Africa, Sicily, and Italy prior to Normandy. It would therefore be logical to assume that had those resources been spent in Normandy rather than in the Mediterranean, that the landings could be made and at least immediately supported. It'd probably mean that the operation would be smaller in scale than the landings made in history and would be reliant on the naval units providing close support, as was the situation at Salerno and Anzio.

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No it represents a political appointment

The same way the the Secretary General of the UN is never a citixen of any of the Security Council members
Which gives that Secretary General a greater voice to speak for the UN as an organization and for his country's interests and how they relate. Which, in a sense is fair treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
The original plan was always for a broad front
With regard to the invasion of Germany, yes. With regard to the breakout from Normandy... that's a different issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
So ?
Offensives don't always work even when the principals of warfare are adhered to

Nevertheless, a key principal in warfare if to concentrate your resources

Btw, the Schlieffen plan failed because not enough resources were allocated to the right wing...the Germans didn't concentrate enough
So? You've been arguing that it is THE principle of warfare. If it was, it'd work EVERY time it is employed. The fact that it hasn't demonstrates that it is one of many principles that change to fit the needs of the situation and the battlefield.
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