A possible work of Abraham?

As Abraham is a fictitious character, I'm going to say fiction.

As a Mormon sacred text is being analyzed here, this thread should probably be in the religion forum.

Not being an expert, my first impression would be that AFAIK God was never called "Jehovah" by the biblical Abraham.

Highly unlikely. Few people could read or write at that time, except for priests and government officials

sylla1 said:

As a Mormon sacred text is being analyzed here, this thread should probably be in the religion forum.

Not being an expert, my first impression would be that AFAIK God was never called "Jehovah" by the biblical Abraham.

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"Jehovah" was never used by the Israelites. It is an anglicized version of Yahweh. Out of respect for God's (G-d's) name, most Israelites preferred to call Him Adonai, meaning "Lord".

zeezrom said:

If I may, what led you to believe Abraham is a fictitious character? This may not be easy to answer, so I completely understand if you decide to bypass answering me.

Thank you,

Zee.

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Because every story I've ever heard about him is so obviously made up? Or do you actually think a divine being spoke to him on a mountain and told him to sacrifice his son?

Sargon of Akkad said:

Because every story I've ever heard about him is so obviously made up? Or do you actually think a divine being spoke to him on a mountain and told him to sacrifice his son?

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An interesting outlook - but an illogical conclusion, imo. If I may: you do not believe the speaking of the divine being? Or the man claiming to hear it? Or the man existing who thought he should sacrifice his son? Which part of that particular story leads to the conclusion "the MAN is fictional" instead of "the story is fictional" - as you obviously do not believe it?

A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.—The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus

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zeezrom said:

Would you consider the following works authentic of Abraham's day and believe it to be written by Abraham himself?

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Ask this site where are now these ancients records. Catacombs of Egypt !!! Should you want to read the book of Abra(ha)m, read the Dead Sea Scrolls.

vera said:

An interesting outlook - but an illogical conclusion, imo. If I may: you do not believe the speaking of the divine being? Or the man claiming to hear it? Or the man existing who thought he should sacrifice his son? Which part of that particular story leads to the conclusion "the MAN is fictional" instead of "the story is fictional" - as you obviously do not believe it?

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Even that particular story isn't just it. The one where he smashes the idols and blames it on the big one - didn't happen. It's too convenient a straw-man argument against the use of idols in worship.

Honestly, Vera, I really think it would be quicker for me to ask you what part of the story that makes you think the man is real. It is so obviously a fiction, such as Romulus and Remus, Hercules, Dionysus, Jason...I could go on.

It's too much of a convenience. The notion that you can trace your races' ancestry back to a single man is ridiculous. So many people working over so many years are what would have produced such a story, and not a bit of it is legitimate.

For example, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham"]My Heathen Idol[/ame] declares:

The Bible relates that Abraham was originally named Abram and was the tenth generation from Noah and the twentieth from Adam.[4] His father's name was Terah, and he had two brothers, Nahor and Haran. His wife was Sarah, and he was the uncle of Lot. Abraham was sent by God from his home in Ur Kaśdim and Haran to Canaan, the land promised to his descendants by Yahweh.

The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."[5]
​

God's promise to Abraham that through his offspring all the nations of the world would come to be blessed[6] is interpreted in the Christian tradition as a reference particularly to Christ. In Canaan, Abraham entered into a covenant: in exchange for recognition of Yahweh as his God, Abraham would be blessed with innumerable progeny and the land would belong to his descendants.[7]

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Twenty generations from Adam? Do I even need to critique the rest of this fictional biography to show how this could not even vaguely be real, when the first line is clearly fiction?

Sargon of Akkad said:

Even that particular story isn't just it. The one where he smashes the idols and blames it on the big one - didn't happen. It's too convenient a straw-man argument against the use of idols in worship.

Honestly, Vera, I really think it would be quicker for me to ask you what part of the story that makes you think the man is real. It is so obviously a fiction, such as Romulus and Remus, Hercules, Dionysus, Jason...I could go on.

It's too much of a convenience. The notion that you can trace your races' ancestry back to a single man is ridiculous. So many people working over so many years are what would have produced such a story, and not a bit of it is legitimate.

For example, My Heathen Idol declares:



Twenty generations from Adam? Do I even need to critique the rest of this fictional biography to show how this could not even vaguely be real, when the first line is clearly fiction?

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Please, point out to me the place where I claimed the I believe this man is real. This would be most interesting.

I have, on the other hand, asked a very SPECIFIC and PRECISE question that has absolutely nothing to do with what I do or do not believe. I asked a question specifically on the logical process you involved in analyzing a specific story and drawing a specific conclusion. Which you did not address, but bring ANOTHER story (idol) and ANOTHER illogical conclusion of the same kind.

I ask once again:

How do you, personally, reach the conclusion that this man is fictional FROM THESE EXAMPLES, using YOUR logic?

vera said:

Please, point out to me the place where I claimed the I believe this man is real. This would be most interesting.

I have, on the other hand, asked a very SPECIFIC and PRECISE question that has absolutely nothing to do with what I do or do not believe. I asked a question specifically on the logical process you involved in analyzing a specific story and drawing a specific conclusion. Which you did not address, but bring ANOTHER story (idol) and ANOTHER illogical conclusion of the same kind.

I ask once again:

How do you, personally, reach the conclusion that this man is fictional FROM THESE EXAMPLES, using YOUR logic?

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I apologise, Vera, it seemed implied by the slightly confrontational nature of your post.

Frankly, I'm not going to explain why a person who is alleged to have spoken to a supernatural being, been the progenitor of five races and is a mere twenty generations from the first human being (despite allegedly only living around 4000 years ago) is fictional. I think it is self evident.

Sargon of Akkad said:

I apologise, Vera, it seemed implied by the slightly confrontational nature of your post.

Frankly, I'm not going to explain why a person who is alleged to have spoken to a supernatural being, been the progenitor of five races and is a mere twenty generations from the first human being (despite allegedly only living around 4000 years ago) is fictional. I think it is self evident.

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OK then, don't, it is your right.

I do not doubt the possibility of drawing such a conclusion, btw. What I do find at fault is the logic of your arguments here.

I person claiming to talk to supernatural beings may live next door to you and be a very real person. That is what I have asked: your logic is flawed, because disbelief in the story should lead to the conclusion the story is fiction, not the PERSON. Am I more clear? I think THAT is self-evident.

Is there something else than fictions about this Abram/Abraham/Avraham ?

barlier said:

Is there something else than fictions about this Abram/Abraham/Avraham ?

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Perhaps, perhaps not - that is irrelevant to the question asked.

Tossing the coin across the Delaware river, chopping down the cherry tree; many myths center around George Washington, but he DID exist.

Is that what you are thinking, Vera?

vera said:

Perhaps, perhaps not - that is irrelevant to the question asked.

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Sound like you are from Normandy with the first part of your answer. If there are only fictions then this PERSON is a fiction as Sargon of Akkad wrote. The fact a character is mentioned in a novel does not make him/her real.