Can we consider France a Germanic country?

sherdogger · Dec 30, 2018

I think it could if we dismiss the new wave of recent immigration from Africa.

France had much more Germanic traits in the past.

It changed its demographics and is already on the decline. By projections in only a decade or two it could be a borderline top 20 economy, surpassed even by central-African countries.

Solidaire · Dec 30, 2018

What is Germanic in France? Apart from the name and the conquerors that it belonged to?

Edric Streona · Dec 30, 2018

I’d say they are a Celtic people, with some German and Latin blood and a Latin Romance language.

Eryl Enki · Dec 30, 2018

They are at the core a Gallic/Celtic people with significant Germanic input in the North especially the Eastern part as well as Roman in the South. At the core they are Celts. The Germans also were quite significantly Celtic until they adopted their conquerors language. Eastern France and Western Germany are literally genetically almost the same people with different languages. They are probably more similar to each other than some people in different regions of their respective country. Northern France, the Benelux, Western Germany and South of England can roughly be classified as Western Europeans on a genetic chart. They are also some of the most powerful, innovative people in human history.

Tulius · Dec 30, 2018

As French is the most spoken language in France, and as it is not predicable that will change in a near future, France is not a Germanic country, but a Latin/Romance one.

Olleus · Dec 30, 2018

Are we just going to ignore the ludicrously inaccurate far-right statements made in the OP?

AnthonyB · Dec 30, 2018

Olleus,

One may infer from the OP, bit strictly speaking there was no specific judgement made about recent immigration, only the idea of not taking it into account.
As to the OP, despite its names origin, France is largely Gallic not Germanic.

Tulius · Dec 30, 2018

AnthonyB said:
France is largely Gallic...

Can you source that statement?

Diviacus · Dec 30, 2018

I answered to this question:
Are the French Celtic?

deaf tuner · Dec 31, 2018

AnthonyB said:
Olleus,

One may infer from the OP, bit strictly speaking there was no specific judgement made about recent immigration, only the idea of not taking it into account. ...

Why mention it, in the first place?

AnthonyB said:
... As to the OP, despite its names origin, France is largely Gallic not Germanic.

The region occupied by today's France was deeply latinised, not just linguisticaly but culturally too. Almost 2,000 years ago. And it remained latinised ever since.

Saying France is "largely Celtic" or " largely Germanic" is like saying Italy is "largely Etruscan" or "largely Longobard". Or that Bulgaria is "largely Thracian" or "largely Cuman".

A bit absurd.

Diviacus · Dec 31, 2018

deaf tuner said:
Saying France is "largely Celtic" or " largely Germanic" is like saying Italy is "largely Etruscan" or "largely Longobard". Or that Bulgaria is "largely Thracian" or "largely Cuman".

A bit absurd.

Not so absurd if you read the link above.

deaf tuner · Dec 31, 2018

Diviacus said:
Not so absurd if you read the link above.

Sorry, but it remains slightly absurd.

(it's not my intent to deny the substratum nor a consecutive "external additions").

You've put in the post You linked a "cutting line" (11th c) that is misleading: the French territory was a lot more latinised way before that date, for example.

You mentioned "immigrants". Most of them latinised themselves extremely quickly (Franks and Normans remains well documented examples).

"Ancestry", "origin", are irrelevant. Relevant is the language and the culture: Dumas having "black blood" in his veins doesn't make him not-French, or less-French or or just-a-bit-French.

_______
PS: leaving apart my disagreaments, good work on that post.

authun · Dec 31, 2018

sherdogger said:
It changed its demographics and is already on the decline. By projections in only a decade or two it could be a borderline top 20 economy, surpassed even by central-African countries.

Who made this projection? Not the OECD or EU for sure. France is the 7th largest economy in the world and the 6th largest exporter in the world. The current forecast is "Continued solid growth despite short-term volatility" Sounds like the person who made the prediction you write about did so looking through the bottom of a glass.

authun · Dec 31, 2018

Caesar divided Gaul into 3 parts:

"All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. "

The Aquitanians spoke a Vasconic language which still persists in the far south. Lactase persistence amongst the french and iberian basque regions is very much higher than their gallic and spanish neighbours. After gaul was conquered, the roman province of Gallia Aquitania was a significant part of Gaul but, as with many peoples in Iberia, they became romanised.

The Belgae have been and remain a problem as far as language is concerned. The Celts in Gaul were the largest of the 3 groups during Caesar's time.

authun · Dec 31, 2018

Diviacus said:
Not so absurd if you read the link above.

I think it is starting to become a matter of semantics now. You say in your 2012 post, about 40%. That might be the largest component but some people understand 'largely' to require a larger proportion than that. You qualify your calculations with the level of ancestral input too, some have more celtic input than others. This is a more recent trend and one which more accurately reflects the fact that we all have ancestors in common and are not characterised by single ancestral lines like mother or father.

Boduognat · Dec 31, 2018

Diviacus said:
I answered to this question:
Are the French Celtic?

According to that, it seems you believe present-day people should be classified according to what language some of their ancestors spoke, at some randomly chosen point in the past (i.e., for some point where there are some written records). You also think there are people currently alive in France who "have a Celtic culture", most of them in Brittany. What that "culture" is supposed to consist of, and how it is different from the "culture" of other people in France isn't explained. I've been in Brittany, and the people there don't seem to live their lives in any noticeably different way to people elsewhere in France, or western Europe generally.

If you're going to classify people on that linguistic basis, absolutely everybody in western Europe who isn't the result of very recent immigration is both Celtic, and Romance, and Germanic, since it's impossible for someone not to have ancestors who spoke a language belonging to one of those groups. Especially since many people speak more than one language. Plus of course there were all the pre-Indo-European languages our ancestors spoke, of which pretty much nothing is known. It's meaningless. Even those recent immigrants will likely speak either a Romance or a Germanic language. Or doesn't that count because their ancestors weren't speaking such a language long enough ago?

Slavon · Dec 31, 2018

No way Germanic.

I think even ancient conquerors Franks were no more than German-speakin Romans. They always lived inside Roman Empire borders.

Slavon · Dec 31, 2018

sherdogger said:
It changed its demographics and is already on the decline. By projections in only a decade or two it could be a borderline top 20 economy, surpassed even by central-African countries.

Their decline wouldnt be so fast and so deep. Because they didnt become pure African, but Euro-African )))

authun · Dec 31, 2018

Slavon said:
No way Germanic.

I think even ancient conquerors Franks were no more than German-speakin Romans. They always lived inside Roman Empire borders.

No, the Salian Franks were from much further north but due to pressure in the Roman Limes many were resettled around Toxandria, between Dordrecht and Antwerp. They were probably formed from groups of Frisii, Chaucii Ampsivarii and others who were driven out by rising sea levels, at least, the term Salii reflects the word salt as opposed to Ripuarian which alludes to the river Rhine. They were joined by other germanic peoples , their numbers expanded and they pushed further south. One of the main points of dispute within the late roman empire was the number of germanic peoples who were resettled behind the Limes and the numbers recruited to officer positions in the imperial army.

This is the Upper German Limes in the 2nd century, well to the east of the Rhine. By the 4th century, The Rhine forms the Limes.

Scaeva · Dec 31, 2018

French is a romance language, so no.

The Franks also did not displace or replace the native Gauls or Aquitani, they simply replaced the old Roman ruling class.

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Can we consider France a Germanic country?

sherdogger

Solidaire

Edric Streona

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Tulius

Olleus

AnthonyB

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deaf tuner

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