Kosovo history of population

Helios · Jun 17, 2011

Thought it would be interesting to show how population changed from serbian to albanian.

1321-1331-Serbs 96,6%
1455-13 000 serb houses, 46 albanian houses
1520-1525-Serbs 94%
1591-Prizren-Serbian with small number of albanians, Gora-Serbian, Opolje-Albanian
17c- The war of 1683–1699 between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 37,000 families of Serb refugees were led by Patriarch Arsenije III Crnojević settled in the Habsburg Monarchy, mostly from today's Kosovo. And then again, from the period between 1717 and 1737, the Second Migration of Serbs.
19c-
19th century data about the population of Kosovo tend to be rather conflicting, giving sometimes numerical superiority to the Serbs and sometimes to the Albanians.

A study in 1838 by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character. Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirke) of Prizren, Pec and Djakovica which roughly covered Dukagjini , the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Dukagjini, Müller found:

114,000 Muslims (58%):
- c. 38,000 are Serbs(19%)
- c. 86,000 are Albanians (39%)
Christians:
- 73,572 Eastern Orthodox Serb(38%)
- 5,120 Roman Catholic Albanians (3%)
2,308 other non-Muslims

Müller's observations on towns:

Peć: 11,050 Serbs, 500 Albanians
Prizren: 16,800 Serbs, 6159 Albanians
Đakovica: majority of Albanians, surrounding villages Serbian

A study done in 1871 by Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:

318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Roma
2,000 Turks

Modern Serbian sources estimated that around 400,000 Serbs were cleansed out of the Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman wars in 1897.

1921- Albanian 65.8%, Serb 26%
1931- Muslims 378,981 muslims, 150,745 Serbs

WWII-During World War II , with the fall of Yugoslavia in 1941, Italians placed the land inhabited by ethnic Albanians under the jurisdiction of an Albanian quisling government. That included Kosovo .
Kosovo's inclusion into a geo-political Albanian entity was followed by extensive persecution of non-Albanians (mostly Serbs) by Albanian fascists. Most of the war crimes were perpetrated by the Skenderbeg SS Division and the Balli Kombetar . Some 10,000 to 30,000 Serbs were killed and another 100,000 driven out.
the then Prime Minister Mustafa Kruja of Albania , was in Kosovo in June 1942, and at a meeting with the Albanian leaders of Kosovo, he said: "We should endeavor to ensure that the Serb population of Kosovo be – the area be cleansed of them and all Serbs who had been living there for centuries should be termed colonialists and sent to concentration camps in Albania. The Serb settlers should be killed."
In April 1943, Heinrich Himmler created division manned by Albanian and Kosovar Albanian volunteers . From August 1944, the division participated in operations against Yugoslav Partisans and in massacring local Serbs population.

Albanians in Kosovo after World WarII:

1948-498,244 68.5%
1953-524,559 64.9%
1961-646,605 67.1%
1971-916,168 73.7%
1981-1,226,736 77.4%
1991-1,596,072 81.6%

beorna · Jun 17, 2011

If in 1871 318,000 Serbs lived in the Kosovo, how can there 400,000 be cleansed after 1876 and nevertheless the Serbs can have a share of 20-30%?

Helios · Jun 17, 2011

beorna said:
If in 1871 318,000 Serbs lived in the Kosovo, how can there 400,000 be cleansed after 1876 and nevertheless the Serbs can have a share of 20-30%?

Some are modern estimates and some are from that time, maybe some came after and left who knows

Albanian Paradox · Jun 17, 2011

I'm sorry Helios, would you mind posting the source from whichever Serbian propaganda website which fabricates its figures, you got this from?

arras · Jun 17, 2011

beorna said:
If in 1871 318,000 Serbs lived in the Kosovo, how can there 400,000 be cleansed after 1876 and nevertheless the Serbs can have a share of 20-30%?

Overal population have risen? Most of the Europe doubled or tripled its population since that time.

Helios · Jun 17, 2011

Albanian Paradox said:
I'm sorry Helios, would you mind posting the source from whichever Serbian propaganda website which fabricates its figures, you got this from?

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo]Demographics of Kosovo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
And i fail to see any propaganda here? It is commonly known that Kosovo was serbian, even albanians admit this.

Albanian Paradox · Jun 17, 2011

Helios said:
Demographics of Kosovo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And i fail to see any propaganda here? It is commonly known that Kosovo was serbian, even albanians admit this.

With a 92% Albanian population today, why does Belgrade deny Kosovo independence and self-determination? A nation should have the right to be ruled by its own people and for their own interests. Do you not agree?

And be careful with statistics from Wikipedia, especially on topics such as Kosovo - there are some committed Serbian trolls out there!

Helios · Jun 17, 2011

Albanian Paradox said:
With a 92% Albanian population today, why does Belgrade deny Kosovo independence and self-determination? A nation should have the right to be ruled by its own people and for their own interests. Do you not agree?

And be careful with statistics from Wikipedia, especially on topics such as Kosovo - there are some committed Serbian trolls out there!

I checked the numbers, and they seemed reliable.
The problem is Kosovo is the place where serb nationality was born to tell you the truth, so it is hurt full for every serb to see it outside of Serbia, i hope you understand, and still a big number of serbs, northern part was in serb majority. But, there are countless situations like Kosovo in the world and same countries that recognized Kosovo do not give independence to the ones who seek it inside their territory, a country can not just give away a big part of it's territory.

Albanian Paradox · Jun 17, 2011

Helios said:
I checked the numbers, and they seemed reliable.
The problem is Kosovo is the place where serb nationality was born to tell you the truth, so it is hurt full for every serb to see it outside of Serbia, i hope you understand, and still a big number of serbs, northern part was in serb majority. But, there are countless situations like Kosovo in the world and same countries that recognized Kosovo do not give independence to the ones who seek it inside their territory, a country can not just give away a big part of it's territory.

Kosovans have made exceptions to the independence agreements, they have agreed to release north of Mitrovica, which is seen as Serbian Kosovo, but Belgrade have still not been happy.

Helios · Jun 17, 2011

Albanian Paradox said:
Kosovans have made exceptions to the independence agreements, they have agreed to release north of Mitrovica, which is seen as Serbian Kosovo, but Belgrade have still not been happy.

Kosovo is lost, and i am well aware of that. But if serbian government recognizes Kosovo as a independent country, that would be like betraying it's principals and main interests and not to mention how angry people would be.

beorna · Jun 17, 2011

arras said:
Overal population have risen? Most of the Europe doubled or tripled its population since that time.

That may be an explanation. But please watch the term "cleansing". During those days the Kosovo was Ottomanian, not Albanian. So it was not a cleansing, but an emigration. And even before that time, the serbian population had become less. So the process of de-serbisation was mainly a natural process, in which even Serbs became muslims and assimilated. The Albanians did not came as conquerors, but as shepards and later as settlers.

Tulun · Jun 17, 2011

So Kosovo is Albanian majority at least since late 19th century (basicly since modern censuses r conducted there) and it was Albanian majority when Serbia conquered the territory in 1912 and remains that way since that time. It's time to face the reality.
Aspirations to keep the Northern Serb majority is reasonable. But why force people to live under Serb rule who don't want? or ethnically cleanse them? just for the sake of some nationalist myths with who knows how much truth in it?

arras · Jun 17, 2011

beorna said:
That may be an explanation. But please watch the term "cleansing". During those days the Kosovo was Ottomanian, not Albanian. So it was not a cleansing, but an emigration. And even before that time, the serbian population had become less. So the process of de-serbisation was mainly a natural process, in which even Serbs became muslims and assimilated. The Albanians did not came as conquerors, but as shepards and later as settlers.

I did not claimed anything about "cleansing". I really do not know much about population changes few centuries back in Kosovo. However you watch the term "natural process" as well. For exactly same reason. I do not think you can call process of conquest and several years of occupation which included more or less forced Islamization as natural. Albanians were Christians originally mind you.

Serbs were not forced out of Kosovo by nature. Nature does not make difference between people. They were forced out by Kosovo changing its ethnic and with it cultural, economical and religious character. In some periods forcibly in other peacefully.

And there is really simple logical construction to prove it: what would be now ethnic composition of Kosovo if Albanians would not move in? Do you think Serbs would have deserted it anyway? Place where they have built their civilisation?

As of whole, Kosovo is example of dangers of immigration. Of any kind. Immigrants bring with them their own culture, their own way of life and they change environment around them if they come in substantial numbers. If culture of newcomers is more aggressive than that of locals, they can but oust them out. Not necessarily on gun point. Kosovo is not only example ...look at European colonization of America or Australia.

That is also face of "multiculturalism". But that is for another thread.

arras · Jun 17, 2011

Tulun said:
So Kosovo is Albanian majority at least since late 19th century (basicly since modern censuses r conducted there) and it was Albanian majority when Serbia conquered the territory in 1912 and remains that way since that time. It's time to face the reality.
Aspirations to keep the Northern Serb majority is reasonable. But why force people to live under Serb rule who don't want? or ethnically cleanse them? just for the sake of some nationalist myths with who knows how much truth in it?

Heh, wish you have such opinion about Slovakia. But its harder to apply same principle when it comes to your own territory isn't it?

Tulun · Jun 17, 2011

arras said:
Heh, wish you have such opinion about Slovakia. But its harder to apply same principle when it comes to your own territory isn't it?

When we had discussions about Slovak-Hun relations u got that impression i question Slovakia's right of existence? I think i never did, and Hungary also recognized Slovakia both in 1939 and 1993 (and made first Slovak state in 1919, Slovak Soviet Republic

). Where should the border run is a different question, many conflicts could be prevented if they followed ethnic lines or the will of the local residents where possible. i would also understand a Serb-Kosovar territorial exchange (North Kosovo vs. Preshava valley), so majority of Serbs and majority of Albanians can live under that country they want.

Tulun · Jun 17, 2011

arras said:
Serbs were not forced out of Kosovo by nature. Nature does not make difference between people. They were forced out by Kosovo changing its ethnic and with it cultural, economical and religious character. In some periods forcibly in other peacefully.

And there is really simple logical construction to prove it: what would be now ethnic composition of Kosovo if Albanians would not move in? Do you think Serbs would have deserted it anyway? Place where they have built their civilisation?

what would be now ethnic composition of Kosovo if Serbs or other Slav tribes would not move in? Most likely descendants of Illyrians/Thracians with varied level of Romanization, i.e. Albanians and Vlachs. And there were most likely other ppl also before them. Albanians are one of the historical populations of Kosovo and in majority since more than a century (at least). If this time is not enough, where should we draw the line to consider a group of ppl "native"?

arras · Jun 17, 2011

Tulun said:
When we had discussions about Slovak-Hun relations u got that impression i question Slovakia's right of existence?

Well you have left me in doubt. But now that you ensured me I apologise for mistrusting you

Tulun said:
Where should the border run is a different question, many conflicts could be prevented if they followed ethnic lines or the will of the local residents where possible.

Well that border left about equal number of Slovaks in Hungary as it left Hungarians in Slovakia. That sounds fair doesn't it? With perhaps bit more Hungarians on Slovak side.

You know that Slovaks and Hungarians were not living separated. Its hard to made ethnic border in such situation unless you do what ex-Yugoslav nations including Albanians did. I hope Slovak and Hungarians will newer sort it out in such a way.

When Southern border of Slovakia was set it respected in significant part ethnic composition. There were other consideration, like military and economical but ethnic composition was the main one. You sure know that some more extreme Czechoslovak requests were rejected. Like corridor to Yugoslavia.

There are very few compact regions inside Slovakia with overall 50% majority of Hungarians. Much less some 80-90% dominance. Any territorial change would result in significant number of Slovaks in Hungary. So wonder how would you find clean solution.

And with results of Slovak assimilation in Hungary since (as well as before) 1918 I would not want to see any more Slovaks in Hungary. Unless they get there on their own decision.

And one thing you can't blame Slovaks for is assimilation of Hungarians. Their minority is basically untouched since they found itself in new Czechoslovak state.

Here is map from last census:
http://hzz.easr.sk/prieskum/priesk_k/obr/madari.gif

Here is for comparison map of ethnicities in kingdom of Hungary in 1880. Slovaks are third from top on the left side (Slovaken):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Hungary_(population_in_1880).JPG

And that is according to Hungarian census which Slovaks generally do not count for entirely unbiased (I do not know specifically for this map). Newer the less it gives you idea where Slovaks lived in Hungary at that time.

Form 400-500 000 people of Slovak ethnicity or those speaking Slovak language (which is basically the same) according to Hungarian census (some Czechoslovak sources claim 600 000) in 1918 to 18 000 in 2001! That is 97% Slovaks disappeared in Hungary just over 83 years.

I would say your Hungarian brethren are in Slovakia safe and well. Unlike my Slovak ones in Hungary

So lets keep border where it is.

arras · Jun 17, 2011

Tulun said:
what would be now ethnic composition of Kosovo if Serbs or other Slav tribes would not move in? Most likely descendants of Illyrians/Thracians with varied level of Romanization, i.e. Albanians and Vlachs. And there were most likely other ppl also before them. Albanians are one of the historical populations of Kosovo and in majority since more than a century (at least). If this time is not enough, where should we draw the line to consider a group of ppl "native"?

Exactly ...but it was not me to advertise separation of territory of Kosovo on basis of ethnicity.

Kosovo case, the modern one is very problematic. There are two principles against each other there:

One is territorial integrity of sovereign state. If we would remove this principle from international relations, half of the world and whole Europe would practically go to war.

Second is of self determination of ethnic groups. However that doesn't extend to ethnic minorities. Just to whole people. And Kosovo Albanians are not separate ethnicity. They already have their national state: Albania.

So Albanians got exception (from most of the Western powers) on the grounds of their existence been treated by Serbs (ethnic cleansing and genocide). Which looks more and more doubtful since prior to NATO bombing not more than 2000 people can be proved to be killed and they were of all ethnicities including Serbs and Albanian guerillas.

In my opinion Kosovo was allowed to separate because it simply suited interests of great powers. Self determination and accusations of genocide, real or fake were just disguise.

As for Albanians, they simply try to create "Greater" Albania. Very same thing Serbs were accused of doing.

But that is of course up to your own consideration.

Tulun · Jun 17, 2011

arras said:
Here is map from last census:
http://hzz.easr.sk/prieskum/priesk_k/obr/madari.gif

Here is for comparison map of ethnicities in kingdom of Hungary in 1880. Slovaks are third from top on the left side (Slovaken):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Hungary_%28population_in_1880%29.JPG

And that is according to Hungarian census which Slovaks generally do not count for entirely unbiased (I do not know specifically for this map). Newer the less it gives you idea where Slovaks lived in Hungary at that time.

Form 400-500 000 people of Slovak ethnicity or those speaking Slovak language (which is basically the same) according to Hungarian census (some Czechoslovak sources claim 600 000) in 1918 to 18 000 in 2001! That is 97% Slovaks disappeared in Hungary just over 83 years.

I would say your Hungarian brethren are in Slovakia safe and well. Unlike my Slovak ones in Hungary So lets keep border where it is.

For the 1880 ethnic makeup here is a better quality map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Hungary-ethnic_groups.jpg

In 1920 141,000 Slovaks lived within the post Trianon borders of Hungary (census data)
You also missed a population exchange after ww2 where majority of Slovaks voluntarily chose to move to CS on the place of forcefully expelled Hungarians from there. Most Slovaks in the territory of current Hungary live(d) in smaller pockets as a result of 18th settlements from the north, were far from the Slovak majority northern areas while there was (and party still is) a compact Hungarian majority areas in todays south Slovakia, next to the Hungarian border.
It is clear in Slovak internal politics the Hungarian issue is still a source of tension, it is poisoning our relationship while with countries with whom we only share small minority groups (Austria, Slovenia, Croatia without doubt) we have a rather amiable relationship. With fairer borders, we could also have the same, who knows.

to our issue also have some relevance to the OP, Serbia's arguments are mostly built on just "historical right" that is their "cradle of their civilisation" and blah blah... should these apply to Slovak-Hungarian relationship too? Afterall your country was integral part of Hungary for almost a millenia, your current capital used to be our capital for centuries (and became Slovak majority just in CS times).
I think not. there is clearly a large, dominantly Slovak majority area there, where the locals desire to have an independent state. Repressing this today would be dirty (most likely require ethnic cleansing) and expensive (require large occupation force) compared to the benefits (nice looking map). Same is true for Kosovo.

Sankari · Jun 17, 2011

Ah, another Balkan cagefight thread. Good times!

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