1400 AD on, born in Africa, stay in Africa

Oct 2018
Adelaide south Australia
"This might be a stupid question, but how many African societies had the wheel before the Europeans "

I think I addressed the issue of black civilisations (all before European interference) Further, I don't accept the simplistic available tools notion of civilisation made popular as an excuse for arrogant europeans to exploit weaker people whenever they were encountered.
A classic example is Australian Aborigines; at 50,000+ years old, this stone age culture (without the wheel) is the oldest culture on earth. That makes them pretty successful. You'd have to ask them about such things as satisfaction with their life, sense of purpose and everything else we use to measure human happiness.

The point I was trying to make about black criminality is that the rates level out once the artificial inflation of drug crimes are removed. The notion that African Americans are simply more criminally inclined is racist nonsense.

"Are you sure that some stereotypes don't have an element of truth to them?" Yes indeed ,they certainly have, just as there are elements of truth in SOME myths, but not many, at least not from my university study in social Anthropology. However, that was 30 years ago, I guess there have been a lot of studies since then to prove what on first glance looks to me like simple racism, isn't.. . By all means please cite evidence for you opinion by way of published

At the moment I can only think of two books to support my own position, I'm afraid I'm a bit out of touch with current academia.

"Stigma" by Erving Goffman, which addresses issues such as the perceived criminality of individuals and groups. It's called "labelling theory". A quite thin book well worth a glance.. I've attached a Wikipedia entry on social stigma which isn't bad.

Social stigma - Wikipedia

On black urban society there's 'Soul Side' by Ulf Hannerz. He provides a reasonable explanation of urban black culture is the US. A bit old, but still worth a read.


Ulf Hannerz - Wikipedia


Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
". On the bright side, there would have been less crime in the Americas. Of course, the Blacks themselves would have almost certainly been worse off in Africa. "

Less crime? Perhaps, not definitely. America currently has the largest per capita prison population ANY nation on earth . Of those, a huge percentage are black people in gaol due to non violent drug charges. Drugs such as marijuana, heroin and cocaine were criminalised in around 1920. Black America has been the main victim of both illegal drugs and the laws against drugs. The issue is the absurd drug laws rather than an innate criminality of black Americans.

All that can be reasonably assumed is that America MIGHT not have the race problem which today permeates American culture, or at least it would not be as pervasive..

Human beings are very inventive about finding a group to hate. Here in Australia,it's currently 'the muzzies' (muslims). In the 1980's it was the Vietnamese (refugees) before them the Italian and Greeks(migrants) thee Poms (british migrants) just after World War one it was 'the balks' displaced people from the Balkans. Threaded through this was a pervasive , casual racism against 'abos' (indigenous Australians) They were not even counted in the census until about 1963, and mixed race children were removed from Aboriginal parens to be educated white. These children are today known as"the stolen generation". PLUS from the time first settlement there was mutual enmity between the protestants (mainly British, often the administration) and the Catholics, mainly impoverished Irish, first as convicts, later as immigrants fleeing Ireland in the grip of starvation due to the potato famine in the middle of the 19th century.

" Of course, the Blacks themselves would have almost certainly been worse off in Africa than in other parts of the world right now--"

Not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean 'if left to their own devices' IE no massive scale of slavery and no colonialism? If so, I'm not sure that's true.

Africans have always been perfectly capable of forming great societies, even empires: The Nilotic ancient Egyptian empire was African , there was'the black kingdoms Cush and Sheba mentioned in the Torah. I think those kingdoms were present day Sudan and Ethiopia. 'Great Zimbabwe' was a city state founded in the eleventh century.First recorded white Man to see great Zimbabwe was Cecil Rhodes, who declared it to have been built by the Phoenicians as his British racism did not allow him believe it could possibly haven built by blacks. Last, but by means least was the Zulu empire, forged by Shaka Zulu in the early nineteen century Shaka was known as :"the Black Napoleon" By 1825, Shaka had conquered an area of 11, 500 miles.

In my opinion, a great deal of latter ay African poverty and underdevelopment was the result of long term rapacious colonialism. Without white interference, I have no problem in accepting that there would be some sophisticated modern societies throughout Africa today. Development would probably been bit different between northern, central and sub Saharan Africa.

Shaka - Wikipedia

Great Zimbabwe - Wikipedia
Both here and on Baidu forum, appreciations of African civilizations and cultures can be rare; rampant bashing of Africans, their history and their cultures exist.
Sahelian empires, the Kingdom of Kongo, and the numerous West African civilizations have been testimonies that Africans can form sophisticated, prosperous societies.
Likes: bboomer

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