1920 Burning of Cork by British Forces

Jun 2014
720
Republic of Ireland
And the Normans weren't English.
I've read that before on other threads. The Normans were roughly a century in England before they invaded Ireland. When did they become English ? Would you define it by spoken language ?
We have had experience of people living here for hundreds of years and still not becoming Irish. Echoes of modern problems with immigration in Europe.
By 1366 the Normans were becoming Irish resulting in the Statutes of Kilkenny.
 
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Sep 2013
1,447
Ulster
@Kevin...the Irish are a peaceful people, maybe even more than the Welsh. Rebellions were not a constant in ireland but a result of built up anger over generations, but you still blame them for starting it. In fact, you're being very unfair and have a polarised view of the history of Ireland. Do remember that the situation in Ireland was different to Wales. It could be argued that the English did not look at the Irish with the same respect as the Welsh and that's why their was no fusion like you guys had. There are Normans manuscripts which portrayed the Irish as being animal and sub-human like. That type of thing can seep into the psyche of a nation.
Couldn't go along with that Eamonn. Even leaving aside 1641 we had this,

Belfast merchant, John Black, recalled later:

the Irish were coming down, sparing neither age nor sex,putting all to the sword without mercy; myself carried aboard my father's ship the 'John', which immediately set sail'.
King James had been moved to restraint by the mass exodus from Belfast to Scotland; Black found the beaches of Stranraer thronged with fugitives, some sheltering from the rain under upturned boats.

Bear in mind too that George Harrison has said that unionists (present day) will have to be driven into the sea if they don't toe the republican line.

Like most peoples there was good and bad on both sides.
 
Aug 2011
5,441
Amerikay
What government in the world would start to negotiate with a 'minority of a minority'? Pearce wasn't even the leader of the Volunteers, he was an 'extremist' who in the middle of the largest most murderous war in history call upon the countries enemies to send aid and invade.

Connolly was a Communist revolutionary HMG really going to negotiate with a man who wants them all shot who if the Rising had succeeded (very unlikely) would most likely stage ,or try to, a second 'Bolshevik' revolution.
They negotiated with Michael Collins. And where in that post did I say negotiate?
 
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Aug 2011
5,441
Amerikay
True many of the problems would seem to be insurmountable -- although we know the way of the gun did not bring a 32 county state could peaceful means?

And I agree events overtook any peaceful solution on all sides there were people who believed (and wanted) violent revolution and or repression we have to remember the context of the time much less peaceful and much more violent there was a train of thought who saw violent bloody revolution as a desirable outcome in itself (this was not confined to Ireland look at Europe as a whole).

We forget that the declaration of war in 1914 across Europe was greeted by cheering crowds.



But discussing alternatives is what you do in history--its not a science.
I gave You and alternative and you shot it down, I didn't say negotate I said tell how it was going to be and tell them to take it or leave it. And they should have offered Dominion Status to Redmond in the first place with Ulster out of the picture.
 
Aug 2011
5,441
Amerikay
The whole post is about communicating and they did not negotiate with Michael Collins but with a delegation of which he was part.
The post was not but communicating it was about making a good offer and telling them to take it or leave it. After things got totally out of control did they offer them Dominion Home Rule- what ever that was? That could has been offered when Redmond held the balance of power. And I all so said that Redmond and Carson be there also.
 
Dec 2012
651
Dublin
Everyone has an agenda on this thread that has NOTHING to do with the thread topic.

Happy Christmas to one and all. Enjoy the festivities with your families. I have just had a lovely Christmas Eve and am looking forward to tomorrow.

Nollaig Shona Dhíobh go léir = Happy Christmas to you all.
 

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