19th/20th century Asian expansionism?

Dec 2011
1,296
#21
Interesting. What about Korea?
Well, there is, unfortunately, not as much scholarship available as in the cases of Japan and China. Hence, a comparison at the same level will be difficult. The general consensus in English language scholarship, though, seems to point to Korea as stagnating during the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,578
United States
#22
Well, there is, unfortunately, not as much scholarship available as in the cases of Japan and China. Hence, a comparison at the same level will be difficult. The general consensus in English language scholarship, though, seems to point to Korea as stagnating during the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries.
Yeah that's what I've read too. Especially the 19th century.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,578
United States
#23
Yeah during the reign of Sunjo (1800-1834) Choson began to steeply decline. Economic and financial problems, a weakening of the monarchy so that various clans (first the Andong Kims then the Mins) began to compete over control of it. Rebellions broke out in different parts of the country. Choson would have collapsed regardless of foreign influence.
 
Feb 2011
6,156
#24
Well, there is, unfortunately, not as much scholarship available as in the cases of Japan and China. Hence, a comparison at the same level will be difficult. The general consensus in English language scholarship, though, seems to point to Korea as stagnating during the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries.
To note much of Maddison's data is made up out of thin air, including China's. A lot of it is basically "hand-to-mouth GDP is 400 per year, we know it's more than that so let's just add 50 on top of that".
 
#26
Interesting. What about Korea?

I am talking about the level of military technology. In 18th century, Korean military power and technology was Greater than Japan. Japan at this point banned the use of muskets to protect the old samurai ruling class, while Korea had field cannon, cuverins, 1000 paces guns, and well trained sharpshooter corps that proved victorious in the battles against the Russian Empire. Korean forts had cannonproof walls and new improved organ guns, dragoons, grenadiers, the full assortment of gunpowder army. Meanwhile Japan disbanded its gunpowder military and had only sword wielding samurai.


 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,578
United States
#27
I am talking about the level of military technology. In 18th century, Korean military power and technology was Greater than Japan. Japan at this point banned the use of muskets to protect the old samurai ruling class, while Korea had field cannon, cuverins, 1000 paces guns, and well trained sharpshooter corps that proved victorious in the battles against the Russian Empire. Korean forts had cannonproof walls and new improved organ guns, dragoons, grenadiers, the full assortment of gunpowder army. Meanwhile Japan disbanded its gunpowder military and had only sword wielding samurai.
The 17th and 18th centuries were actually when the Choson military was at its height. Like most developed armies throughout the world it revolved around infantry drill and musketry tactics. And yeah they certainly had a lot more diversity in firearms. Not sure about the banning of muskets, I was under the impression it was only a ban on commoners which wouldn't significantly affect the actual soldiers.

Japan did have a few cannons, mostly small European-style breechloaders or naval culverins. Also some giant musket-based guns that fired large incendiary arrows, obviously inspired by the similar Korean practice.

The "thousand pace gun" was a wall gun that was too heavy to be used in the field but was more powerful. It was generally used in fortifications.
 
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#28
When Matthew Perry Opened the Japanese port and forced a treaty, all of Japan acquieced wihout a single shot. There wasnt even an anti ship cannon in Japan's port in 1850. When the US attacked Joseon in 1870s, even though obviously US military hard superior armaments, Joseon actually put up a fight with their antiquated cannon and firearms, and refused to acquiesce. Just by this measure, you can see Joseon Military was more advanced than Japan pre Meji Restoration era. After Matthew Perry, Japan swiftly imported western weaponry and overthrew the shogunate. Joseon imported western weapons later on in the 19th century. But in 18th to early 19th century, Joseon would easily defeat Japan in an actual war, though war was highly unlikely because Joseon and Tokugawa shogunate were in very good terms. (see tongshinsa missions). Joseon developed its military for the purpose of defeating the Qing. (which never came around because later on, Qing offered friendly terms to Joseon that it couldnt refuse)

Economic wise, Japan is likely to have a higher GDP, because 1, Korea shunned mercantilism as being immoral, so restricted market activity, even forcing the Silver Cuppellation method invented by Koreans to create a bigger impact after being spread to Japan. 2. Korea was in more isolation than Japan, who had Dutch island to trade with Europe, while Korea imprisoned dutch sailors that accidently got shipwrecked in Korea. So Japan made much money selling Pottery made by Korean artisans kidnapped from Imjin war, while Koreans didnt sell any at all. Because japan embraced capitalism they made innovations like the Futures market.

however this all changed in the late 19th century when Korea began to change and embrace western market practices. It established the central bank and stock exchange. It accepted western railroad and electric companies and allowed exploitation of its mineral resources. Where there is a will there is a way. Unfortunately it was too little too late, and Japan bribed most of Korean officials to make deals more favorable to Japanese encroachment. The myth is that Korea got colonized because of a weak military but in actuallity Joseon spent 30% of its budget on the military and it imported the best machine guns and field cannon from Europe. Japan's pockets were deeper than Joseon's, however, and they paid off the officials to reduce the Korean military budget to a measily 5% of the budget and then incrementally downsized the Korean military force from tens of thousands to a few thousand. These last few thousands were officially banned in 1909, but half of them rebelled, and the other half joined resistance forces.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,610
Sydney
#29
I love and respect Koreans ( especially the women ) worked with them , traveled with them , visited the place
" the Silver Cuppellation method invented by Koreans "

By the time of the Romans cuppellation was a proven technique ,
it seems that anyone who could light a fire and wanted Silver has invented it independently

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuppellation
 

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