1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th Rome......

Sep 2019
If we were to trace the legacy of Rome, from ancient times to the modern, what paths could it take?

Zeroeth Rome: Athens?

1st Rome: Rome. The original one

2nd Rome: Byzantium/Constantinople

3rd Rome: For me, instead of one linear path, the paths diverge here into two separate directions

3a: Holy Roman Empire: The Revival of the western Roman empire.

3b: Moscow/Tsardom: Carrying on the orthodox christian legacy of Byzantium.

4th Rome: London/British empire. Personally not sure about this one. Feels likes like there is a missing link here between the British and HRE.

5th Rome: Usa.

What do you guys think. How would you go about creating a lineage?
Jul 2009
Rome had been something of an afterthought for the Emperors since the fourth century. Constantinople had become the center of the Empire, and so it was in the 15th century when it was subdued by the Turks. IMO there was no - and is no - third Rome. The concept of some "other Rome" is, as mentioned, conceit and propaganda.

The Roman Empire lasted twice as long in Constantinople as it did in Rome. That was it. All the rest is make-believe.
Likes: Matthew Amt


Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Are you asking about numbers of Romes, as in cities, or numbers of Romes, as in states, realms, polities?

By the way, Moscow was not the first Third Rome, it was at least the second Third Rome.


Forum Staff
Oct 2011
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I tend to avoid this sequence of "Romes" ... I don't think that at London in XIX century they thought to be at Rome ... It's possible that, as for model of Empire, someone had in mind the Roman one [like today in US someone could think to the Roman Republic as model], but at the end, historically, I prefer not to project the identity of a past entity on more later entities. Or we should wonder who are the new Mongols, if today we can recognize a new Ottoman Empire, if China is the new Japan as dominating Asian country ... and so on ...

It's a quite curious exercise.

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