A different arrangement for Palestine and Jordan after the end of WWI

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
14,247
SoCal
#1
Here's the idea--after the end of WWI, Britain decides to merge Palestine, Jordan, and the western part of Iraq into one huge territory. This territory can be called Greater Jordan or whatever you like. Anyway, let's say that Britain decides to make Palestine an autonomous zone within Greater Jordan where Jews are allowed to have a safe haven from persecution in other countries as well as autonomy to run their own affairs. The logic behind putting Palestine, Jordan, and western Iraq into one country would be that Jews would be able to return to their historical homeland but also that Jews will not be able to outnumber the Arab population in this territory. In other words, Jordan and western Iraq provide additional demographic strength for the Arab population in this territory.

Jews will be able to move out of autonomous Palestine and into Jordan and western Iraq, but then they'll have to follow the same rules as everyone else who lives in these territories. In contrast, in Palestine, Jews are going to have a greater say in the running of this territory. Also, the constitution of Greater Jordan is going to explicitly say that an unlimited number of Jews can move into Palestine and that no constitutional amendment can change this.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this? Would such an arrangement have lasted? Also, what about if Hitler would have been killed in WWI or 1923 and thus there would have been no WWII and no Holocaust? Then would such an arrangement have been more likely to last?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,321
#3
Any actually inidepedenat Arab state is not hoing to allow the immigration of people set on the foundation of their own state. No independent state would.

Autonomous Jewish Palestine is a compromise and fiction which will last only as long as imperial bayonets enforce. The fundamental intesrts of the population and immigrants are diametrically opposed.
 
Likes: sparky

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
14,247
SoCal
#4
Any actually inidepedenat Arab state is not hoing to allow the immigration of people set on the foundation of their own state. No independent state would.

Autonomous Jewish Palestine is a compromise and fiction which will last only as long as imperial bayonets enforce. The fundamental intesrts of the population and immigrants are diametrically opposed.
I'm assuming that having the Jews live peacefully among Arabs just like Latinos live peacefully among Whites in the U.S. is too much to ask for, correct?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
14,247
SoCal
#5
Also, for what it's worth, this autonomous Jewish territory is certainly not going to have its own military or anything along those lines. If the Jews try smuggling weapons to Palestine, the Brits and Arabs should try to stop them.

Basically, I was thinking of preventing the Jews from having any military power in this scenario in order to prevent them from trying to subvert this Arab state from within.
 
Apr 2017
762
U.S.A.
#6
Also, for what it's worth, this autonomous Jewish territory is certainly not going to have its own military or anything along those lines. If the Jews try smuggling weapons to Palestine, the Brits and Arabs should try to stop them.

Basically, I was thinking of preventing the Jews from having any military power in this scenario in order to prevent them from trying to subvert this Arab state from within.
After the holocaust many jews swore never to allow another state be responsible for their defense. So if ww2 still happens in this timeline its unlikely the jews would support it.
 
Likes: Futurist

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,321
#7
I'm assuming that having the Jews live peacefully among Arabs just like Latinos live peacefully among Whites in the U.S. is too much to ask for, correct?
yes it is far too much to ask. Zionists are not going to settle for anything less than a full blown state where the Jewish population absolutely dominates. preferably without the Arab population.


Also, for what it's worth, this autonomous Jewish territory is certainly not going to have its own military or anything along those lines. If the Jews try smuggling weapons to Palestine, the Brits and Arabs should try to stop them.

Basically, I was thinking of preventing the Jews from having any military power in this scenario in order to prevent them from trying to subvert this Arab state from within.
fundamentally unstable. Jewish immigration into Palestine will reseultin civil war sooner or later,

if the British control things, things will play much as they did historically,.

If the Arabs have real sovereignty they will stop Jewish immigration. which is the only possible peaceful solution.
 
Likes: Futurist

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,321
#8
After the holocaust many jews swore never to allow another state be responsible for their defense. So if ww2 still happens in this timeline its unlikely the jews would support it.
Zionist attitudes were hard line an unrelenting well before ww2 or the holocaust.

The End Goal was always a Jewish State, in all of paletsine (if not more)

The Zionist movement had already decided the removal of the Arab population was necessary before 1900.

The Zionists movement was opposed to any sort of equality or Arab political rights,
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
14,247
SoCal
#9
yes it is far too much to ask. Zionists are not going to settle for anything less than a full blown state where the Jewish population absolutely dominates. preferably without the Arab population.




fundamentally unstable. Jewish immigration into Palestine will reseultin civil war sooner or later,

if the British control things, things will play much as they did historically,.

If the Arabs have real sovereignty they will stop Jewish immigration. which is the only possible peaceful solution.
It's really sad, isn't it? The Jews have a legitimate claim to Palestine due to them being originally from there, but if they weren't willing to live peacefully among Arabs, I can certainly understand why exactly Palestinian and other Arabs would be so hostile to Jewish immigration to Palestine. It also does a good job of explaining why the Palestinians don't want any Jews in their future state--they're afraid of Jewish subversion!

This does sound a bit anti-Semitic when I write it like that (though I am an agnostic Jew myself); still, in regards to Palestine, it does appear to explain a lot.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,321
#10
It's really sad, isn't it? The Jews have a legitimate claim to Palestine due to them being originally from there,
.
On what possible basis? Where one's ancestor lived around 2,000 years ago is hardly an workable bias for citizenship rights. People who have not lived somewhere for thousand of years have greater rights than the current population. really it staggers me that rational people can think this claim has any merit what so ever.

I
but if they weren't willing to live peacefully among Arabs, I can certainly understand why exactly Palestinian and other Arabs would be so hostile to Jewish immigration to Palestine. It also does a good job of explaining why the Palestinians don't want any Jews in their future state--they're afraid of Jewish subversion!
Everyone one wants peace on their own terms. Zionsits were willing to live in peace with Arabs as long as the kept quite, perferable out of sight, and were willingly to cede are really importnat political decisons to tthe Jewish population, the Arabs were willing to live with teh Jews on much teh same terms but reversed..

Zionism as a modern political movement was founded during the late flowering hey-day of colonialism. Was it is SO surprising that it shared many similar attitudes with colonialism for which it is a related concept. Europeans have a right to settle anywhere, they are more advanced , industrious, whiote settlement (whereveer it hapopens) is in the best interests of the native population whose lives will be improved and raised up by the colonial settlement. It;s late 19th century European thought.

Zionism is a fairly understandable reaction to anti-Jewish prejudice, discrimination, suffering, pograms, hate that European nations had dealt out in varying degreees to the European Jewish population, rejected by European nations they wanted to form their own nation. Sod you lot we'll have a own country.

Jews had a pretty sorry history of being a minority subject to the whims of majority populatiions, that they wanted somweher ewhere they were teh majority., and there rights where not beholden to some suprioir enlightened form of race relations that all too often did not exist. of course when teh ZIonsits were in control of Palestine they would be so much more enlightened.

But the tradgedy/irony./moral problem with Zionism as a political idea embodied in founded a Jewish state in Palestine is they wanted others to accept what the themselves found unacceptable. They wanted to impose their rule on Palestinians, they wanted someho9w to be the majority.

No population anywhere in the world accepts foreigners coming in vast numbers to set up their own country. It can only be down but superior force and violence.

In Many other areas of the world at times not too much earlier European settlement went ahead, the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Where disease, violence, immigration and various measures did their work and created European Majorities.

Israel exists now and we have to leave with the past. But we also have to make peace with it. I ask of Israel what I ask of my own country Australia, to make real treatty with the Native population, to make an acknowledgement of the past and the rights of the native population. I know that here, the histrocial forces that have given a great preponderance to the European population should make that task easier, but we have not got there yet. In Israel and Palestine, the history is harder, the numbers harder. I acknowldge that,.


I
This does sound a bit anti-Semitic when I write it like that (though I am an agnostic Jew myself); still, in regards to Palestine, it does appear to explain a lot.
That the words anti-Semitic has been totally captured as only applying to a small subvset of the semetic population explains a lot.