a possibility of Indo Gangetic tradition instead of ''Indus valley civilization'' during the bronze ages?

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,445
Australia
Indo Gangetic tradition includes the IVC and doesnt exclude it, IVC being only a part of the tradition and not being itself the whole thing, this is clearly stated by JM Kenoyer in his lecture above.
I know ... thats what I am saying . You, however said ;

.... sites like shortugai at the oxus which presents a real possibility of indo gangetic tradition instead of IVC.....
At this point, then , I must confess I am not sure what you are on about . Do you mean that Sortugai was an outpost of IGT and NOT IVC ?

Did you see the IVC / BMAC 'passport' seal presented in the lecture ?

As far as Daimabad is concerned, there is no evidence that it had late harappan culture ...

Upinder, Singh (2008). A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Delhi: Pearson Education. p. 230.

... and not its distinct Deccani culture, i think late harappan postulation is false, as you can clearly see from the map that shortugai is included but daimabad area is included in Deccan culture.
Okay. I suppose you can think whatever you want ... but that is different from saying there is ' no evidence ' .


As far as BMAC is concerned, a part of BMAC was part of maurya empire/shown in second map and the site of BMAC was also linked with indo gangetic tradition via buddhism, Gandhara, Kamhoja and loads of other history as well.

regards
Now I am REALLY not getting you ! It is not shown in the second map , IGT is shown as not extending to BM Also ....Note the dates ;

1573503960627.png 1573504048225.png 2400–1600 BC
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,808
New Delhi, India
IMHO, not just North-West, I think the West (Mekran, Balochistan and further, Iran) contibuted to IVC. Neighborly influence must have percolated. But, I understand, the OIT people are not going to agree. Aryans stayed in Helmand and Argandhab valleys and went up to Khuzdar in Balochistan.

"9. Xnənta = location unknown; a region defined as vəhrkānō.šayana- "the dwelling place of the Vəhrkāna," where Marquart placed the Barkánioi of Ctesias, an ethnicon analogous with that of Old Persian Varkāna, previously thought to be Hyrcania (the present Gorgān) although more likely the Khuzdar region of Balochistan;
10. Haraxᵛaitī = Arachosia; centred on Arghandab valley in modern-day southern Afghanistan, and extended east to as far as the Indus River in modern-day Pakistan; Sarasvati in Vedic Geography.
11. Haētumant = the region of Helmand River roughly corresponding to the Achaemenian Drangiana (Zranka);"

AryansinAf.png
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,585
USA
IMHO, not just North-West, I think the West (Mekran, Balochistan and further, Iran) contibuted to IVC. Neighborly influence must have percolated. But, I understand, the OIT people are not going to agree. Aryans stayed in Helmand and Argandhab valleys and went up to Khuzdar in Balochistan.

"9. Xnənta = location unknown; a region defined as vəhrkānō.šayana- "the dwelling place of the Vəhrkāna," where Marquart placed the Barkánioi of Ctesias, an ethnicon analogous with that of Old Persian Varkāna, previously thought to be Hyrcania (the present Gorgān) although more likely the Khuzdar region of Balochistan;
10. Haraxᵛaitī = Arachosia; centred on Arghandab valley in modern-day southern Afghanistan, and extended east to as far as the Indus River in modern-day Pakistan; Sarasvati in Vedic Geography.
11. Haētumant = the region of Helmand River roughly corresponding to the Achaemenian Drangiana (Zranka);"

View attachment 24607
When in doubt, read the Nadi Sukta of Rig Veda. It should tell you the relative location of Saraswati (Sarah + vati = Saraswati which gets butchered as HaraXvaiti. There is no equivalent to the word Sarah - with the visarga at the end in Avesta. So the RV word is the original for it has the root words clearly forming a Sandhi).

And there is no Setumant (Avesta Hetumant) in Rig Veda. It has Gomati, Kubha, Krumu and Rasa but no Setumant, On the other hand, Avesta has Setumant and Rasa, and has reference to Sapta Sindhava and Sarasvati. Makes me think that Setumant is a later term for a river West of Sindhu in Rig Veda.

Hetumant/Helmand is not Sarasvati.
 
  • Like
Reactions: prashanth
Mar 2019
1,809
KL
At this point, then , I must confess I am not sure what you are on about . Do you mean that Sortugai was an outpost of IGT and NOT IVC ?
try to read carefully what im trying to say

the sites such as daimabad so far south of IVC is intriguingly related to the sites like shortugai at the oxus which presents a real possibility of indo gangetic tradition instead of IVC.
i dont think that daimabad is related to IVC, or late harappan, secondly relating daimabad/deccani culture with IVC sites at oxus river as i stated indicates presence of indo gangetic culture. Shortugai is not a lone IVC site, there are other IVC sites in that region others including mundigak etc.

regards
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,808
New Delhi, India
When in doubt, read the Nadi Sukta of Rig Veda. It should tell you the relative location of Saraswati (Sarah + vati = Saraswati which gets butchered as HaraXvaiti. There is no equivalent to the word Sarah - with the visarga at the end in Avesta. So the RV word is the original for it has the root words clearly forming a Sandhi).

And there is no Setumant (Avesta Hetumant) in Rig Veda. It has Gomati, Kubha, Krumu and Rasa but no Setumant, On the other hand, Avesta has Setumant and Rasa, and has reference to Sapta Sindhava and Sarasvati. Makes me think that Setumant is a later term for a river West of Sindhu in Rig Veda.

Hetumant/Helmand is not Sarasvati.
Nadi Sukta is a late creation. It mentions Yamuna and Marudvridha (which possibly might be a river going North from around Pushkar, Jaipur. Jaipur municipality is reported to be trying to revive an old river). Setumant/Hetumant/Helmand was probably forgotten after Aryans settled in India. That is why you don't find it in RigVeda but only in Avesta. HaraXvaiti (another Saraswati, like those in Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, Sari-su), sure is Argandhab at least for AMT people.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,445
Australia
try to read carefully what im trying to say
Okay, try again then .... < reads on >

the sites such as daimabad so far south of IVC is intriguingly related to the sites like shortugai at the oxus which presents a real possibility of indo gangetic tradition instead of IVC.
Right .... you just said Shortugai presents a real possability of IGT insted of IVC ... got it !

i dont think that daimabad is related to IVC, or late harappan, secondly relating daimabad/deccani culture with IVC sites at oxus river as i stated indicates presence of indo gangetic culture. Shortugai is not a lone IVC site, there are other IVC sites in that region others including mundigak etc.

regards
Now Shortugai IS an IVC cite ... and there are others in the region .

??????????????

I give up .
 
Mar 2019
1,809
KL
Okay, try again then .... < reads on >



Right .... you just said Shortugai presents a real possability of IGT insted of IVC ... got it !



Now Shortugai IS an IVC cite ... and there are others in the region .

??????????????

I give up .
with IGT i meant variety of cultures under a tradition, i didn't mean to eliminate IVC with IGT. India had variety of cultures upto modern era, it was not one singular culture.
the title meant that IVC was not a singular tradition as understood commonly but there were several parallel cultures.

regards
 
  • Like
Reactions: hansolo